Lessons from my 15off 34mph bet

[Horton]

I blew the bet because I did not expect it to be hard. Now that I have run some passes at 15 off and long line - I am thinking that all of us that give advise need to ski some 15 off and maybe rethink our advise at that level.

[Jody_Seal]

You go right ahead and keep up the good work at 15 off and long line! Makes one wonder though is a short line skier better than a long line skier? Different techniques...

[Than_Bogan]

I see your point, but advice I give to a 15 off skier is not intended to make them amazing at running 15 off. It's intended to help them get through -28 and even -38 some day.

 

If they just like running -15, as some do, then they don't need any advice from me!

[Horton]

Ok go just go try it for perspective

[Than_Bogan]

I've never had much trouble going back. I never practice longer than -28 (except first day in course, coming soon), but I have confidence to go off at -22 for wind or other issues. In fact I did that at Nationals this year.

 

And i've done -15 recently, although admittedly I didn't know it. I requested a -22 start because of wind direction, and they accidentally set it at -15. Couldn't really tell the difference.

 

That said, I run those passes nothing like I'd ever coach someone to. I run very flat skied, usually launching at the wake. And I barely release the handle. It's all about safety -- taking a cautious line to avoid a fall.

 

I'd expect anyone 6 passes back from their max to ski like this, and I'm not sure it informs how someone learning the pass should ski it at all.

[skidawg]

15 34 is easy, Horton is a puss for missing it and he should be shamed! Ran it today in brutal winds; 36 long line is a different beast! Very freaking hard, ran it on my 4th try! It is quite an accomplishment! Horton is still a PUSS!

[Ntq206]

So, @Horton now having gone back to -15 - how would you shape the advice for this level (my) of skiing?

[skidawg]

I would like to add that my cracks on horton being a puss missing 15 is strictly razzing him, not any skiers at any other ability level.

[ctsmith]

skidawg, your comments made me list my boat and sell my ski. The shame is more than I can bear.

[ForrestGump]

I always thought a backwards round in a tournament would be entertaining. Start at 28, then 22, then 15, then long line, then slow down. Winner lasts the longest, goes the slowest. Starting line length could be anything, not saying you have to start at 28. It'd be awesome to see Skidawg trying to run long line 28mph.

 

[skidawg]

Long line 36 was hard enough, any slower than 34 and i'm using jumpers.

[elr]

Since LL/-15/-22 appear to be so different than -28 and shorter - is there validity in working with junior skiers at -28 and slower speeds?

[Than_Bogan]

I'm still formulating an opinion on having younger/beginning skiers do some work at -28 at slow speeds. I'm pretty sure it has some value, but it's hard to get a basic rhythm and comfortable feel going at -28. As a beginniner, this short of line may feel very restricting and many also lead to tons of slack and more out-the-front falls than -15.

 

So my big worry would be getting frustrated before becoming addicted. Once someone is already really into it, then I'm pretty sure the occasional -28/slow pass is a good drill.

[Razorskier1]

@Horton -- thanks for giving it a go! I agree with you that it might be helpful from a coaching standpoint to go back and understand how those lines feel. I think it would be particularly telling at slower boat speeds, where the skier really doesn't get any "swing" going, and instead basically pulls to the ball, turns, pulls to the ball, turns. Stuff we think about at shortline is irrelevant.

[Razorskier1]

Oh, and PS @Horton -- made my donation just now via paypal.

[Chef23]

@elr I think trying to run 28 off for juniors would be very frustrating as they would never get to 2 ball. April Coble recommended running long line for my kids.

 

15 off is not harder than 28 off at any speed. It is different but 15 off is easier. 36 mph long line is a bit of a different beast it might be harder than 15 off. 28 off at 36 mph is much harder than 15 off for beginning skiers. The guys that are saying how hard 15 off is run 28 in their sleep and already know how to get the right body position and speed behind the boat.

 

To me the value of long line to kids is that it teaches them proper body position. Kids can't run slower speeds and long line without getting themselves in the right position and pulling through both wakes.

[boarditup]

There is an old line - What got you here won't get you there. The same goes for slalom skiing. While there are basics - especially body position - the nuances that are endlessly discussed here are meaningless for the slow, long line skier. As a relatively slow and long-line skier, the advice of some coaches is better suited for those -28 and shorter. The best coaches instinctively know what it is like to struggle to build speed, be able to glide to the ball, and feel the swing while going slow at long line. It is a different skill set.

[skidawg]

Zero glide at longline!

[skidawg]

Hate to say JTH is right but, totally diff skill set for skiing LL!

[crashman]

so @Horton @skidawg what factors do you think are most critical in maintaining outbound direction off the second wake at -15 or LL. Do you think the handle control article applies at the longer lengths? Anything that's commonly discussed regarding the subject that is irrelevant at the longer lengths?

[ForrestGump]

Since it wasn't that long ago I was still skiing 15 off, I can without a doubt say that the handle control article is applicable to every line length and speed. Where the handle is located dictates the leverage arm that is applied. The thing is, I don't know that a 15 off skier can understand how to place the handle in the correct place yet. I know it wasn't until I started getting into 32 and 35 that I really started to find the lightbulb going on in regards to this. Personally, I think the most critical thing for a 15 off skier to learn is the stacked body position. If you can draw a line from the ankle through the hip and through the shoulder, that position will give the greatest glide out to the buoy line. If your head and shoulders are ahead of your hips, the end result will be less space in front of the buoy when you get there. You will also feel like you have to go edge to edge with no transition in between. If you have that good body position, you will get to the buoy line more upright and with space, which will allow you to start learning what that carving arc back to the buoy feels like.

 

Had I learned this better at 15 off, I'd have had an easier transition going from 28 off into shortline. Once the stacked body position is ingrained into the muscle memory, then the skier can start concentrating on handle control.

[Than_Bogan]

What @ShaneH said. I really believe this is the one focus area for skiers at this phase of their develoment, assuming they desire to run short-line someday (which some do not, including my dad).

 

Last weekend on the train I drafted a 6-page mega-treatise all about the stacked position (I just barely prefer the term "leverage position," but it's the same thing) and in particular how somebody at this stage can learn it. At some point I may manage to publish it somewhere.

[crashman]

@ShaneH good thoughts-thanks for them. I had always thought the stacked position was important for creating/maintaining angle against the boat coming out of the turn and during wake crossing, but I never gave it much credit in the preturn so I'll really focus on that next time out. This could help explain why it is that when I skied the other night at dusk and could hardly see the buoys on my last pass I was so early I couldn't believe it- probably because I had better body position without focusing on the buoys.

 

@skibrain maybe I should just forget about the buoys for the rest of the summer and just focus on throwing bigger spray!

[ForrestGump]

In almost all balance sports the phrase Look Down Fall Down applies. Especially running buoys. Myself, I have a tendency to bring my head and shoulders ahead of my hips when I watch the buoy come at me. This causes you to ski straight at it. At 15 and 22 off, Mueller used to tell me I was staring at em like I was a 13yo boy looking at a nekkid woman. The turn is just there to link the differing directions. You're in your position behind the boat longer than you are in the turn. And I mean from the time you hook up at the finish of the turn to when the ski makes it's first arc towards the buoy is 100 ft lets say. But from the first arc back to where you hook up is less than 50. We always think it's the turn where we have to work, but in reality it's everything that happens before the turn that is where the most ground is made up.

 

FWIW, I figured that same thing out about dusk a couple of years ago. My dusk set was always best because I couldn't see the buoy until I was going past it.

 

I get to ski with some pretty good elite level skiers. Even they will do it at times, so you're not alone. I watched a 41 off capable Big Dawg skier just stare down one ball last week at 38 off. He can run that in his sleep, but he made that one mistake and was in the water at 2 ball.

[skidawg]

That vid was the first longline I've ever skied on a slalom (ive done it many times as a jumper in a previous life). It was quite difficult because there is no release from the pull of the boat! One mistake and the boat owns you. It also feels like there is a more direct line to the bouy instead of having free time before the bouy to turn at will!

[ForrestGump]

Dawg, I wonder how it would have felt had you been on a wider lake where you could get a little more up on the boat.

[Chef23]

@cashman made an excellent point. Beginning course skiers tend to be buoy focused and this makes it very hard to run the course. I try to tell beginning course skiers to not think about or look for the buoy until after the white water past the second wake. I find generally they don't listen to this advice. I believe 15 off skiers can't ski too early, wide or stay on the handle too long coming into the buoy. These are excellent fundamentals that can be adjusted as you get to 35 off and beyond. Of course for me beyond 35 off is conjecture as I have never been there.

[colo_skier]

Interesting observation, On the rare times that I can run my 15 off without a lot of effort is usually when the sun is glaring down the course and i cannot really see 2, 4, 6. I have to ask the spotter if I cleared them. It seems that the not looking at the buoy's is a key element to getting through the course for me.

[skidawg]

Getting wider on my gate would make little difference, it's just a hard pass!