The Cost Of Competing

[scuppers]

I've spent too much time deciding weather or not to post an opinion so here it goes. Reading Horton's latest "What Now" post sorta gave me the go-ahead.

I haven't competed at nationals for 6 years. Therefore no need to join AWSA. This year with the location back in Florida I thought I'd give it a try. I renewed my AWSA membership, went on line and read the Southern Region Guide and the new rules for reaching the level to qualify, and realized this whole thing is gonna cost real money! All in, 3K, maybe more if I don't ski my PB/EP/Whatever.

That seems like a lot. Maybe that is the root cause of some of this AWSA/Grow the Sport controversy.

Am I the only one that is thinking this?

[Kelvin]

I don't want to think about how much tournaments costs!!

[Kelvin]

In theory, you can qualify for Nationals with 2 tournaments, a qualifier with the required score above the level 8 COA (cut off average) at an ELR tournament during the 3 weeks before Nationals. That will get you into Regionals and Nationals. You then must ski Regionals to be able to ski Nationals.

 

 

[mkerzie]

skiing is not a cheap sport!

[clemsondave]

Work towards getting your officials ratings. I enjoy working tournaments when I'm not skiing. Keeps my mind busy. Will eventually get you invited to tournaments.

[Chef23]

For me competing isn't a cost/benefit thing. I enjoy the challenge, spending time with my son and the friends I have made at tournaments. I hope to qualify for Nationals some day but I am a ways from it right now. If I did a cost benefit analysis on this right now it would be very hard to come up with justification for competing.

[Wish]

What would it take if you only skied class C tournaments to qualify for nationals (level 8). They are one third the entry cost in most cases.

[Chef23]

I think you need three class C tourneys to get a ranking with no penalty.

[Wish]

Is a State Championship and/or Regionals considered as the 2 ELRs to qualify if scores reflect level 8?

[Than_Bogan]

Hm, $50k boat, $2k ski, $4/gal gasoline ... thinking $3k more is not that much for someone who is interested in competing at the Nationals.

 

Like Chef23 said, you can't really get there with a cost-benefit analysis. There will always be way cheaper ways to stay in shape. For someone who is thinking that Nationals is too costly, I would recommend not doing it. It's one round and (trust me on this) that could a verrry short round. But if you really enjoy competing on the Nationals stage, the experience can be priceless.

 

P.S. Shame on whoever marked the original post as off topic. (Unless that was Horton and he re-categorized it.) Cost of skiing is a very BOS-relevant topic.

[scuppers]

@Wish: I don't know for sure exactally how to get qualified in general, let alone the least expensive way. A big part of my estimated expence is the trip to KY for regionals. If Kelvin is correct, that would be the least expensive, provided I ski at my PB.

[A_B]

I spent way more than that on a country club, golf cart fees, monthly minimums, etc, for similar fortune and glory that I get from skiing.

 

 

 

 

[jimbrake]

It is pricey, Scuppers. I feel your pain. Like you, I haven't gone to Nats in several years because of cost. Our western regionals were at my home lake last year and will be again this year, so if both of my sons qualify for nats then we may go. I feel like I owe it to them. I would love to go to regionals and nats every year, but just can't swing that. For the past few years, we've gone to regionals only and have foregone nats. We have still had a blast travelling, hanging out, skiing, and seeing a few sights while there. Nationals would just be icing on that cake.

 

Just go to a few local tournaments then see where your rankings end up. Then you can see how far away or how close qualification really is. You've got to get a few scores up on the board first. Maybe plan on three to five local Class Cs, then see where you stand, then regionals, then....?

[Jody_Seal]

National Glory! I can say that I personally have never skied in a National championship, However have a son that has won nationals in three events and in four different age groups. I think Maybe 7 titles in all. And A daughter that has a few national medals. The cost for getting them their was not that high in respect to what I could have spent as I have watched others dump money into the sport for training and coaching along with equipment and tournament and travel expenses. I think for a lot of skiers the game changed drastically as Zero off was a game changer, the pull is so different from that of of what the masses had in their older boats that now it is almost not worth the effort to ski in tournaments if a ZO boat is unavailable to practice with. I know in the past we were able to ski and train with boats that were 10 years old or older and still be able to feel competitive because we had the same speed control setup that was utilized in tournaments. Another Game changer is the amount money it takes to go to tournaments and bring the family along. Entry fees for 4 skiers can run in a class C up to $200.00 total, then the cost of getting their, add on meals and hotel room/'s the bill can go as high as $1000 (or more) for a single weekend. Now do that four or five weekends a year add on State, Regional and National Championships And you have spent $10K (or more) just at tournaments not withstanding the personal equipment and practice and site/ boat costs.

I know for me personally trying to shoot for the nationals is an unrealistic decision as the competition structure is not setup for true ability level competition and the fact that their are many sandbaggers in the division makes it a bad investment. whereas I can spend my weekends up on the lake with other like minded skiers that are more into having a great time enjoying the sport behind our own boats that allow us to feel like we can run the 39 line..... Sounds better every time I think about it!

[Chef23]

@scuppers you do need to ski regionals to ski nationals and you need to qualify for regionals. If you only ski in one class C event there is a 10% penalty on your score so you would need to be sufficiently above the qualifying score to get to Regionals with only one tournament. I think top 3 at Regionals usually qualifies you for Nationals as well.

[MattP]

I don't even want to think about the money I spend on skiing.... I know its more than I should be spending. I do not want to start thinking about tournament costs either... Only skiing local can't afford to travel. Might do one out of state. Thats all. If you can barley afford to practice how can you afford to compete?

[A_B]

A good saying I heard once went something like this:

 

The last check you write should be for your funeral and it should bounce...

 

 

[Jody_Seal]

The cost to participate should not make one go broke or have to assign a second or third mortgage on ones home to do so. Attached are pictures of one of my rides that I am currently utilizing. Tow vehicle is a 1997 S-10 with the big 4.3 Vortec and a 5 speed. Boat 1992 Ski Nautique re-powered with a APEX 330 HP Chevy and Star gazer. Total in this rig is less than 9K ! the boat will pull a short line skier to a 1.77-7.13-16.95 all day long with all ball timing being as close as any ZO boat, Yet the pull feel from this setup is far different then that of a ZO equipped boat that is utilized in tournaments today. Want to get more skiers back in the sport with economics in mind? get these guy's family's and skiers to want to participate that have this type or better boats in the mix and the cost will subside as more will participate.

Another words it should not have to be that costly to ski and compete!

 

http://static-cl1.vanilladev.com/ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/f3/423401a6e11e498751182d5cfeba88.jpg

http://static-cl1.vanilladev.com/ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/35/f4af2b01185f160e407ae6f8023d65.jpg

[A_B]

@jody seal, looks like an opportunity for promoting your business on the side of that SN.

[Wish]

I resemble that photo. Total worth of 01 truck and 97SN $16K. Boat looks new. Truck not so much. Lake home bought off divorcing couple (fixer upper) 18 yrs ago cheap. So I don't fit the high dollor rig house and lifestyle that Than suggests. Tounaments can be a big hit to our bottom line. I cut costs where I can - used equipment ect.. One cost cutter would be to have more access to class Cs for me and Fs for my daughter ( only 2 of those in FL) Did not ski any tourneys last yr do to cost. Will suck it up this yr cause Nationals r here in FL.

[thager]

You don't need a high buck 4x4 tow vehicle except for ego. I towed my old Hydrodyne for years and many miles with a Ford Courier two wheel drive automatic 4 cylinder. Negotiated some pretty steep landings using a person in the boat to start things moving.

[scuppers]

Thanks to all that responded.

Mostly I want to know if anyone else thought about or was shocked when they looked at ALL the costs. I think I'm gonna take @jimbrake and @chief23's advice. Since I've already signed up for AWSA, I'll pick and choose some class C's that are as close by as possible - then see what happens. Yea that trip to regionals is for sure a big part of the total expense.

[ntx]

@scuppers

Is this the same scupper that had a 3 plus million dollar house for sale in central FL 6-8 months ago? I can't imagine that with a house like that, 3k would be a major concern. I remember seeing the house and thinking to myself, There is someone with the world by the cash.

 

I don't know your age group, but last year M4 slalom, one score in a class C of 3 @ -38 (with a 10% penalty) would have been enough to get you to regionals. Then, a score of 4 @ -35 at regionals OR a top 5 finish at regionals would have been enough to get you to nationals. This is allowing for the penalty of 2.5 %. Again, this was last years requirements. They should be close to this again this year. Hope this helps to give you a idea what performances would be needed with the min. amount of tournaments.

[scuppers]

@ntx -Yes that's me alright and I count my blessings every day. Really I do.

Even though I'm fortunate enough to have that home I am still a working class guy that watches what he spends.

I was just shocked looking at the Southern Region Guide and the costs and wondering how other working class people with families & homes, and stuff to take care of, manage it all.

I'm 62 M6 I think. On special occasions I can run 32.

Next problem - I ski behind a 2007 MC with classic PP. Never skied behind Star Gazer or ZO. Thanks for your help!

[MrJones]

Lots of thoughts about this. First. Is it supposed to be easy/cheap to get to the national championships of any sport?? 12-15 years ago there was a lot of talk about the qualifications for nationals being too low and that they should be raised making it more of a championship instead of a family vacation. (The issue was finding sites large enough to host 1000+ skiers.) Has ZO and the cost of travel and tyournaments basically done this???

 

I am on the side of Nationals being a family destination type deal. A championship yes, but one that the entire family can compete in and afford to go to. Hate to say it, but it's only skiing. If I can take the family on a vacation melded in with a tournament great. That much just to ski... harder to swallow. (Jody needs to talk Cory into hosting Nats in Destin btw. That place was great)

 

I think that if the family aspect of our sport is not pushed/supported we are in trouble.

[LeonL]

@scuppers, As of right now 4 at 32 "average" will get you into Nationals in M6. Last year 5 at 28 was good for 5th place in the Southern Regionals and thus qualification for Nationals. Suggestion for Regionals -- drive to Paducah, bring your tent and camp out on site, only spend 2 nights there. Then you're only out $90 entry fee, $40 camping, plus round trip gas; 1800 miles -based on where in FL- about $250. You have to eat whether home or away, so can't count all of that, so you can scrimp by for under $400 for regionals.

[Jody_Seal]

We have actually kick the idea around to hold nationals however it is not like it was nearly 20 years ago when the area was a bit more inexpensive to operate in. the Area has grown in both size an affluence. Also their are far more homes on the lakes now and to have 1000 competitors and their family's on site is just to much to overcome logistics wise.

 

Yes Nationals is about the best of the country's athletes on a given day. one of the problems as I see it is in the men MM, M3,4,5 and even some men 6 skiers, every one of the guy's at the top of these divisions are all very good skiers and equal in ability and performance capabilities and a lot of them through out the year ski MM then jump over to age division at regionals and nationals. So most everyone else at the regionals and nationals are skiing for basically 5th to 8th place depending on the division.

So it boils down to if your ok to make minimum qualification and pay the expense to say you skied in the Nationals then that is good for those that make that decision and also for the tournament organizer. I am fine showing up at the practice dock paying my 20-25 dollars and getting a ride or two in at West Palm beach it is cheaper then entering the tournament and in most cases get more passes!!!

[ntx]

@scuppers Ok based on that info. Last year one class C score of 2.5 @ -28 gets you to regionals. That sounds easy enough for you. LOL Here's where it may get trickey. If you just get to regionals with the min of 2.5 @-28, you would need to have 4@-38. (ouch) at regionals OR top 5 finish. Last year 5.5 @ -28 got top five. That sounds like it could happen. OR two class C score plus regionals all at 4 @ -32. Good luck and hope to see you at nationals.

 

@Mr Jones I can see both sides of it. Maybe regionals should be the family vacation. Do we run the risk of lowering the standards so far that everyone gets in. Currently, if you are a girls 2 overall skier, you get to ski nationals. Let me say that again, EVERY girls 2 overall skier in the country is qualified to ski Nationals. Does that not reduce the importance of the event? Does is not reduce the image of our sport even lower. Back to the everyone one gets a medal for just showing up. I have seen many young skiers over the years take the "been there, done that" attitude and have just dropped the sport due to there early accomplishments. They did not strive to reach the bigger goal. They had "been there"

[MrJones]

When discussing Nats, my main issue was the cost of getting there. The top 5-10 of each division is going to be ultra competitive. That is not going to change in any division. @Jody- If you take out seeds 1-5 because they are "too good", seeds 6-10 will be the next ones filling the same shoes. So on and so forth...

 

My overall point was that Nationals seemed better when it was a bit of a "destination" and not just a tournament. I CAN NOT see why AWSA does not put the US Open back with Nationals. It pulled pro and amateur skiing together along with all the sponsors, etc. IMHO Nationals has never been the same since the two parted ways.

[Jody_Seal]

Aw but Mr Jones! you run the top 5-10 in these divisions over to the competitive MM division and then their are actually in upwards of 20-30 front runners that are competitive and a very solid competitive MM division. Now we have a National competition and larger number of skiers in the other divisions that are more competitive that have designs on winning it!

Nationals is a Destination agreed. Anyone ever been to the AMA moto Cross Nationals? It to is a destination but unlike waterskiing you have the opportunity to ride almost every day through out the week! So how do we continue to make Nationals a destination and not make it a sport of everyone wins for showing up?

[jimbrake]

Hey, for me it's just fun to go to nationals (and/or regionals) regardless of where I finish. Yes, I want to ski well and place as high as possible, but I'm there for the whole experience plus, like Scot Jones says, for the family vacation. I don't care who is at the top of my division. Whatever.

[Chef23]

To me qualifying for Nationals is the goal I just want to ski in one even if I finish last. Being able to ski in one when my son does would be very cool. I need about 6 buoys to my practice PB and 9 to my tournament average from when I was healthy.

[6balls]

I like to know that from a performance perspective I'm a nationals caliber skier...but I like skiing more than spending. I will ski 3 tourneys or so a season so no score penalty, and this year want a composite over 100.

I would rather ski all weekend long at home during nationals than spend the dough on flight, hotel, entry etc to ski once. That's an expensive set.

[Boody]

I don't "like" the expense of tournaments, but its well worth it. Skiing with the same people every weekend is fun, but I need more. When it comes to tournaments I like the butterflys, excitement, frustration, joy and fun atmosphere. You just don't get these feelings from skiing at the lake on the weekend.

 

I think this is what separates us from the folks who hit the lake, drink beer, and pull themselves around on a tube. We need more. Tournaments are what give us this.

 

As far as nationals, its more for the experience than the placement for most of us. But for those of us that live and breath this stuff, its like being a kid in a candy store.

[disland]

All sports have this issue. You can not compete, compete locally or compete nationally and globally. Each step up entails more expense and the rate of increase is exponential.

 

It is a personal choice and also depends on your skill level and your wallet thickness. I have competed in sports my whole life and then I was a surfer for many years. One thing I missed in surfing was there really was no local competition for adults. I picked up water skiing later in life and I was amazed at the extent of local competition for all ages.

 

If it comes down to a money thing then really your not a competition type of guy. Nothing wrong with that.

[Ham_Wallace]

I think that the Nationals should be available to any skier competent enough to run some minimum speeds/rope lengths. Make it HUGE. Elimination rounds. head-to-heads and a finals. Don't use Sr. Officials until the finals and make the entire thing a viewable, enjoyable festival! AWSA could use the money and so could sponsoring clubs and Chambers of Commerce. Make it so families stay the week. U.S Open in the midst of it, Open/Elite events in the mix, Big Dog Finals etc. hell, even have ski racing, hydro-foil, knee board, wake board and barefoot all close by at the same times. Think Big! Imagine thousands of "Lake People" in one place for 9 days!

[boarditup]

The people on this board are typically the Type A, competitive personality types who want to be at the pinnacle of their possible performance. That is why there is discussions on what ski, setting for fins and bindings, rope stretch, and a host of other details.

 

The nature of the competition is one person at a time. It takes a very long time to run any competition. It is not like a race where many participants are on the course at the same time. It is tough on the spectators.

 

The INT US Championships is the concept Ham Wallace is speaking of. Typically, it is run in 3-4 days. It works well, although you don't get to ski much. I have not been to an AWSA Nationals, so I cannot compare.

 

I believe BOS serves best as an enthusiast site for the more competitive personalities. Those aspiring to run the course need to be supported and served - hopefully by the core group on this site. We should be very welcoming, open, and offer help, pulls, and whatever support novice skiers need.

[scuppers]

@Ham Wallace - Man you're "Spot On" (as OB would say). This is the best Idea ever and in every way possible. Everyone Wins!

[jcamp]

I know it might create even more headaches for host sites, but it would be cool if there was a way to run a class c alongside Nationals that only family members of those skiing in Nationals would be eligible to ski in. That way if one person in a family qualifies, everyone in the family can ski ... even if it isn't for a national title. I'm sure a lot of people who qualify can't justify the expense if only one person in their family has the chance to participate. Pretty tough to drag the whole family out there if only dad or mom get to ski.

 

Run the side tournament like a grassroots event (awards, mulligans, etc.) and it could be a lot of fun.

[Wish]

@Jcamp. That is a great idea. And could actually be pulled off at Okee considering the number of lakes they have. Would make my trip there well worth it with fam in tow knowing my daughter gets to ski too. Very cool.

[Wish]

Travel cost $1300.. Entry fee $170 .... the bragging rights to say you played on the same field as some of the best in the country ..... Priceless!!

 

 

[Wish]

@cowtipperguy. You are a legend in my mind. Hardest workn (in less than desirable work surrounding) skier I know. And the hands...... Sheeez! Come on down sometime. Highly recommend in the dead of winter.

[jackski]

Ham always has the best ideas

[Ham_Wallace]

OK: For example. 150 M5 slalom skiers enter. 1 or 2 lakes, 2 boats in each lake. Each skier draws to see his rd. 1 competitor. Now, this is a 2 pass elimination round. Example: skier 1 starts at -28 and runs both passes scoring 6 @32, then skier #2 would have to start at -32, run it and get something at -35. The loser then goes into a losers bracket. (all skiers ski a minimum of 2 times) When a skier loses twice, he's out.

Running 2 passes and 2 boats, the time per skier/per round would be sub 2 minutes. Thus the first round of M5 slalom could be run in 5 hrs on a single lake, 2 1/2 hrs on 2 lakes.

Round 2 could be 2 days later. after rd. 2, 25% of the skiers would be eliminated. Anyway, there would be a big ol' mental game involved too. After Rd.#3, 50% are out. Now we are smokin'. Skiers will be going out cold at 32, 35 and 38. Cool viewing and a speedy event happening. 75% will be gone after RD#4. Getting closer to a finals, huh. Not yet!

Round 1 & 2 took 2 1/2 hrs each on 2 lakes. Rd.# 3 took about 1 3/4 hrs. Rd.#4 1 hr and 15 minutes. (now we are boogying) Now we are running a round in 1 hr, 16 minutes on 1 lake and the tension is heating up........by rd 6, it is down to 15-16 skiers, 32 minutes, rd 7 8 skiers, 16 minutes, You guessed it! 4 skiers and 2 finally run it off! Spread it over 9 days ( 2 weekends and a week and woohoo!

BTW, 2 boats for tricks, starting docks on each end, 20 second passes. Boats running each direction with skiers. 1 minute per skier.

Jumping, 2 jumps! (we did it in M4 jump in Houston after a rain delay from the previous day. NOW that changes the mindset! That event ran FAST!

Make it fun, git er done! Sorry Eric, I know you could handle 20 seconds of tricks!

[The_MS]

@wish watch what you wish for. Cowtipper and 6balls in Florida in the winter on hall passes could get out of hand.

[Wish]

@MS. I'm counting on you to chaperone.

[H20SkiGirl]

We have never competed in Nationals until last year because we thought that particular trip cost too much... But with that being said we are going to make Nationals an actual vacation every year because of the experience we had last year. The sport is so great and we love going to tournaments... We have learned to save in the winter to be able to go to tournaments and see all of our friends who love the sport so much!

[eleeski]

Big Nationals rock!

 

Ham, my problem is I need 25 seconds! I need a new division - SlOpen. But two trick passes can still work fine - especially head to head. Your elimination idea is valid. Traveling 3000 miles for 40 seconds gets tough. Get a few more times on the water - and maybe a consolation round or two - and the trip can be worth it in its own right.

 

I'm going to the Bahamas (or the Keys or somewhere tropical?) for some diving after I ski. Making it a planned vacation.

 

Eric

[6balls]

@MS, cowtipper guy and I have a hall pass to Pine Island...start stocking up now and we should be o.k. when it's warm. Airport pick-up?

[Ham_Wallace]

Pine Island Alabama?