Bob LaPoint on wings

[JAS]

In a recent WS article Bob said that at 34 and below, and in the 15-32 off range you should take your wing off. Do you think this the recommendation for the S-2 as well?

[Horton]

@MS what do you think?

[Razorskier1]

@Horton -- pretty sure that doesn't work in Minnesota . . . at least that's what @MS tells me.

[303Skier]

This is probably due to the fact that at 34 MPH you don't need the help of a wing as the ski is sufficient enough to slow the skier down to make a good turn. But at the same time wings are a stabilizer so not sure why you would want to ski without one?

[Ryno]

I have heard the same thing, at 55 kph and below they are more of a hindrance than help. Skiing without a wing should also improve your technique, in that you have to shift your weight correctly in the pre-turn to ensure you can get the ski to slow down.

[Texas6]

I thought Horton did a bunch of "wing-less" testing at some point last year? Am I offbase Horton?

[Than_Bogan]

I'm a pretty firm believer in going wingless unless you are trying to learn 36/-28 or 34/-32.

 

This is not so much because the wing is really a hindrance, as because you want to learn to control the speed of the ski "yourself" to whatever extent you possibly can. I really believe that I ended up a better skier by following that plan.

 

But once things start really getting short, I feel the added control and deceleration of the wing is too handy to pass up.

[The_MS]

I think Bob is a great skier that was brought up without wings in the 80s/90s. Speed is not an issue with a stabilizer. It will stabilize you at 34 or 36. All new airplanes have wiglets on them. it helps a plane at slow and high speed. (OB may know something about this) Schnitz uses a wing. Chet uses 3 of them. Chad uses the ventral set up.

Here is the deal. Take it off and try it, you can always put it back on.

[Wish]

Not to start a ventral wing discussion but went wingless on a Goode 9800sl and it skied considerably better in the speed department. Shortline was scetchy. Added a front ventral and scetchy problem solved.

[jimbrake]

MS - fixed it for you: Bob is a great skier that was brought up without a wing in the '60s and '70s. He and Kris (and Schnitz) were the first to use them back in about '79 or '80 if I recall correctly. He certainly knows of what he speaks, but to each his own. I agree with your approach though, try it on, try it off, decide which you like best.

[Horton]

I ski without a wing. I think it is a more common practice here on the west coast.

 

Try it. If you like it better, ski that way. If not put it back on. The idea that you must use a wing is silly.

[Horton]

Maybe you should try it.

[GAJ0004]

I only ski I used without a wing was the O'Brien Synergy Z(1993-1999). I found it would roll on to its edge quicker for me at 36 MPH. Every other ski I have used the wings..

[rodb]

The first ski i ever ran 38off on in a tournament i rode with no wing.

[rodb]

25

 

[skidawg]

To wing or not to wing......that is the question? Who cares, go ski, what ever works for u!

[skibug]

Maybe no wing is the "new" West Coast Slalom....

[04196]

I smell the next poll

[matthewbrown]

I think that if you can stay on top of the ski into and out of the turn and keep it from getting out in front of you, then wingless is definitely the way to go. Really, the ski size, flex and the rocker will dictate how well you can keep up with the ski.

 

[swc5150]

Wings are a topic of much discussion here in northern WI. I start the season with it on, then pull it once I'm back in ski shape. The difference is likely all in my head, but that's what works for me. When a had my white-top Nomad, I loved it with no wing; tolerated it with the wing.

[crashman]

that article and this discussion have me thinking about removing the wing from the my official BOS Radar Vice, but as a novice skier can you help me understand what to expect? The last time I started trying to get cute with fin and binding positions on my Senate I ended up out the front with a black and blue ankle and since then I've just used factor settings and tried to adjust my technique instead of the ski. Is there a "be careful not to break your neck" factor to removing the wing? (currently skiing 15 off 28-32 mph- hoping to get to 34 mph by season's end) Thanks for your thoughts.

[eleeski]

Crashman, as a totally committed fan of wings, I recommend you remove the wing. The difference in feel is small. Until you are running your maximum speed, the wing is counterproductive. It adds unwanted drag and makes your buoy count less. Lose the wing, you will love the feel.

 

Once you get to your maximum speed, put the wing back on. It will make that top speed pass feel just like the pass below (the buoys still go by faster however).

 

For those who age up to a slower speed, removing the wing may help the transition.

 

For me, who comes blistering into every buoy and needs to crank a turn to stay alive, the wing is priceless. MS is right!

 

Eric

[tsixam]

Kris Lapoint on wings:

 

"Where you place the wing on the fin makes a big difference–no, make that a huge difference. Even on the same ski, you may position it differently than another skier would place it. It takes plenty of trial and error to find the optimum location, but it’s worth the effort. Here are some general guidelines for adjusting your wing position:

 

Moving the west wing toward the rear (putting the trailing edge of the wing about 0.5 in. From the rear of the fin blade) pushes the ski out in front of you in the turn and makes the ski finish the arc more quickly. This is especially good if your ski tends to finish behind you at the end of the turn.

 

Moving the wing forward, to about middle of the fin blade makes the ski stay in the turn longer and helps keep it underneath you while finishing the turn.

 

Moving the wing up the blade, toward the bottom of the ski, lets the ski roll up on edge easier in the pre-turn and may slow the ski slightly more than a lower placement.

 

Lowering the wing placement provides more stability. The ski feels more locked in and is also harder to roll up on edge during the pre-turn.

 

Wing angle is a totally separate issue. If you are using a wing, it has got to have some downward angle. The minimum is about 5 degrees and the maximum about 124 degrees. Common knowledge says the more angle, the better the ski slows down and the more drag the ski encounters while traveling across wakes. I don’t disagree with this, but wing angle plays another important role–it also affects how the ski turns. More wing angle promotes rounded constant-radius turns, while less angle yields a turn that’s slower to start with but very hard to finish. Most skiers like the characteristics of more angle on their off-side turns, and less angle on their on-side turns.

 

Like a lot of things, with fine tuning your ski you must find the best compromise. Spend a lot of time trying new locations and angles you think might not work. You may be surprised how much difference it will make."

 

Tsixam

 

[Wish]

I really wanted to understand that but it left me hanging. Are we supposed to drill holes in our fins to move wing forward or backward ( what's with the "West" ). And how does more wing angle promote consistent longer radius turns? And less angle yields a slow start to a turn? In my head the whole turn should be faster with less angle. Why is it harder to finish...is it because of too much speed. How does that relate to.... most skiers like the characteristics of more angle on their off-side turns, and less angle on their on-side turns. Felt like that was was an afterthought sentence. Which angle would be preferred to achieve what most skiers like? I do not question a master fin setter like Kris. I just want to understand his thoughts. Maybe it's been to long of a day and I'm slow on the up-take.

[igkya]

@tsixam.. a max of 124 degrees? hopefully that's a tpo and you meant 12?

[04196]

Question on the "Most skiers like the characteristics of more angle on their off-side turns, and less angle on their on-side turns." Has anyone (Schnitz, and I know this should be directed to him on "his" forum) but has anyone tried/made a wing that could be set at different angles on each side and would this have any effect on the off/on side turns. Like a slotted front wing hole that allowed different angles on each side? Stupid question or thought?

 

 

[tsixam]

I dont know about the angle ot anything else in the article.. I found it on the www.

Tsixam

[Ilivetoski]

I have become way too dependent on my wing. I have it set at like 13 degrees. I took it off for a set and couldnt run my opening pass, took it off and it was a complete disaster.

[Horton]

@Ilivetoski 13 degrees is like an anchor. I think the generally accepted range is 8 to 12.

 

Going to 13 on wing angle is like going to 11 on a Marshall amp

[Than_Bogan]

If you need 13 degrees, my personal guess is your ski is the wrong size. But the's also something to be said for "if it works, don't mess with it!"

 

I would have said the range is 6 to 10.

[9400]

Pffftt....like Bob & Kris know anything about slalom skiing

[jimbrake]

9400 - I know, right?

[PBD]

@crashman I was like you I skied with a wing and really didn't need it. So after being told time and time again to lose the wing I took it off and what a difference. The ski was tremendously faster and I spent the next week sleeping on my back because of the damage I did to my shoulders on the multiple out the fronts I took due to the increased speed of the ski, but in the long run it was the right move. I was working way too hard when I didn't really need the braking the wing gives.

 

My $.02 is to take off the wing, but ski the next few sets real easy. You wont need to work so hard to get the same results and you will be less likely to end up out of control.

[crashman]

Took your advice and removed the wing. @eleeski you are right on. The difference was subtle but it seemed like I had an easier time getting in an acceptable position before I took the load from the boat which is what I need right now. Third night in a row I've skied so fatigue is a factor but I made some real nice passes (for me).

 

I need to stay in the habit of taking advice from you guys!

[wskier]

Horton told us soo!!!

 

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[SkiJay]

Food for thought:

Advise to not use a wing until ##-off has been around for quite a few years. Aren't today's skis the fastest skis in history?

Could wings be more necessary on today's fast skis than they were on the slower skis of over a decade ago?

 

[schroed]

You want your wing to fit like a flesh tuxedo otherwise it will sink in the water like a pink torpedo.

[Ham_Wallace]

Once again: MS is wrong! Bob and Kris skied the 1980 season with a fixed, welded wing on their MasterCraft SuperStar slaloms. They kept the ski under wraps until after the 1980 Nationals in Tyler, Texas at Garden Valley Resort. Notice the weld on the bottom of the wing. I am not positive on the timelines of wing evolution. I know Schnitz claims being it's inventor. I think Kris was first, Schnitz second and George Schubert had the first adjustable wing with his Acuski Company.

[kona]

I am wingless and have never used one. It is the first thing I take off. Its like a marketing thing, It looks cool. Why in the world would my new Theory need a wing ????????????? I guess if I were skiing 36 but I dont, and when I did the didn't have them.

 

Wing a wing a ding ding

[kona]

@horton If a wing went to 13 Nigel Tufnel would ski it.

[Ham_Wallace]

Kona, Give it a rest. I have been to 14 degrees. Brakes are brakes.

[Ham_Wallace]

I did only run a ventral on the front of my A2 last season.

[Ed_Johnson]

I honestly feel I have found the best of both Worlds by using a Mini-Ventral Fwd. and a Standard Ventral Rear. That combination has worked great on my last four skis. Mid 9900, Nano Mid, Sans Rival SR2, and the HO S2. Helps turning capability by keeping the nose down off the apex, accelerates better by reducing the drag of a larger wing. In the case of the SR2, it greatly enhanced stability.

[sergiomoulatlet]

@ Ed Johnson

What is the right position for these ventrals ?

can you take a photo?

thanks

[Ed_Johnson]

The Goode Web-site had detailed photos and diagrams, along with a Video of Chet and Chad. I run my Fwd. Mini Ventral in the same position they recommend at Zero degrees, and the rear Std. Ventral at 6 degrees in the same position the original Factory Wing went.

[SkiJay]

Just because this is such a cool photo, here's Chet's fin last year (where ventrals on skis were pioneered):

http://db.tt/U9i6Z0a4

[Steven_Haines]

Holy cow! I wonder if theres any flex in that fin. That could make for an ugly wreck! Especially at his level. Hes got to be getting a ton of tail slide with that set up.

[SkiJay]

Schnitz has the speed slot fin, and Chet has the ventralized slaughtered fin!

I watched all 5'10" of him ski into -41 on it daily.

[Horton]

@Crashman if Eric said do do not do it

[Horton]

Fyi I am running a wing on S2. First ski I have ever found I like better with.