Stainless Inserts.

[Phil2360]

Been looking around for them down here & loosing the battle.

 

Anyone willing to help me out?

 

Want to get may hand on a dozen & fit some to my old EP Honeycomb trick ski the boys use.

 

Would someone be willing to grab me some with screws & post them down.

 

Will cover all costs of course.

 

Thanks

 

Phil

[Sethski]

Where are you located Phil? We sell them at our shop, but let me know where you are so I can let you know what's available. BTW, we don't really sell them to make any money...just to cover our cost to help people out on stuff like this.

[Phil2360]

Thanks Seth,

 

Australia. So USPS would be the way to go.

 

Was also just think it may also be worth putting some dual lock under the fitting too,

to reduce the load on the fasteners.

 

The ski does have an alloy inlay for screws but it only matches the original '80's binder.

 

It's now got a HO plate on it.

 

Phil

 

 

 

[Chef23]

Can you drill some holes in the plate instead of putting inserts in the ski?

[Phil2360]

@Chef23, No the old plates were quite wide where the screws went.

 

Also would prefer not to be relying on just the self tapping screws in the to glass layer.

 

[MattP]

@Phil2360 have you looked into reflex bonds?

http://www.reflexworld.com/2010SITE/web/images/shop/12bonds.jpg

reflexworld.com

[Phil2360]

@Sethski, can we organize something?

[eleeski]

Inserts are the way to go!

 

I'm sure Seth has inserts that will work well for you. Make sure you buy the screws from him as well so you are consistent all english or all metric. Get plenty of spares too. And use anti sieze in the screws so you don't get sticky and back out the inserts when changing bindings.

 

I may have more problems because I use brass inserts with stainless screws (dissimilar metals need anti sieze for sure). My inserts are standard cabinetry inserts. Smaller specialty hardware stores stock them sometimes in California. But styles changed a while ago so the only narrow diameter ones I could find were online. The hardware store ones are great for oversizing holes. In a pinch I have drilled and tapped a smaller size to fit the ski hole. You may need a tap to convert to metric - but that is difficult with stainless.

 

To install whatever insert, first find some tap that matches the threads on the outside of the insert (I found a very coarse wood screw that works great). Get a long screw and jam nut and put the insert on them (not quite as easy as it sounds). Add JB Weld to the threads (both on the insert and the ski hole). Drive the insert with the screw/jam nut in place (if you didn't set the jam nut well enough you will have to drive it in with the jam nut - doable but a pain). Let the epoxy cure. Hold on to the jam nut securely and back out the screw (if you don't hold the jam nut the whole insert will back out). Break the nut free of the epoxy and trim the excess epoxy. The inserts should work well for you. If you do back out an insert (it happens) Reinstall with some fresh epoxy and you are back in business.

 

My skis have thin skins. Inserts are a must for me and they work well and are easy to install once you get the hang of it. Make sure you get LOTS of spares and screws and bolts. Good luck.

 

Eric

[The_MS]

@eleeski do your skis even have a skin? I thought you just took some sheetrock and cut out a ski.

[eleeski]

Even sheetrock has a paper skin! Seriously (!) do you know how hard my wallboard texture is to apply to a ski?

 

I did try using drywall plastic anchors as my first inserts. They worked reasonably well but could only cycle (get unscrewed) once or twice. Plus a really hard fall would strip the plastic. Of course, the stripped ones wouldn't back out for easy replacement...

 

Eric

[Phil2360]

Bump!

 

Didn't get to this job over winter.

 

@Sethski, couldn't seem to find them on your site, just looked again now & searched on inserts but didn't get a result.

 

@MattP, not sure I'd want to be attaching the bonds to the top deck. Think it would be a lot stronger to get inserts to take the load into the Honeycomb core. Less chance of delaminating the deck.

 

Any idea how I can get some before Christmas.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Phil2360]

Google gives me nothing.

 

Bit of Snow Ski stuff & plenty of 5mm & upwards!

 

Help!

[BraceMaker]

Don't overestimate the strength of the core.

 

I've used ones like this:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/fasteners/Threaded-Inserts/thread-inserts-for-wood/8-32-insert-for-hard-wood-stainless-400-008-cr

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-inserts/=k4ypxd

 

 

Problem is, if you really want strength it is almost better to drill the top deck, then hollow out the area behind it so you can put in some good resin and chopped up fibers to hold the insert. Otherwise the inserts will like to tear out the core and the deck.

 

The core is not really all that durable. Used to be we just screwed to the top with sheet metal screws.

 

 

[Phil2360]

@BraceMaker,

Understand that the core is not all that strong. Int this case Aluminium Honeycomb, but stronger than the top deck.

 

There are actually alloy strips under the top deck for the original fitting to screw into, but unfortunately these strips are placed too narrow for any of the current bindings, so the screws miss them & just go thru the top deck.

 

Would certainly be doing as you suggest as far as reinforcing the area where the inserts would be located.

 

Looks like the first on those sites only ship via UPS which would blow costs oout to here.

 

Thanks

 

Phil

[MattP]

@Phil2360 if you have alloy strips why don't you get an adapter plate made to put your bindings on? Then screw into the strip.

[ForrestGump]

Phil, Seth doesn't get on here very frequently. Your best bet is to email him at h20z.

[Sethski]

Phil is right, but I got an email notification on this one. I can send some inserts to you. As far as the reflex bond, that might be a better solution because there is no substance to a honeycomb ski. And for future reference for everyone, the only thing about stainless steel inserts that make tem better than screws is that you can ideally loosen screws and move boots then retighten without wearing out the drilled hole. Using a screw with a course thread will provide the same hold. The plastic/nylon block inserts that are molded into most slalom skis provides the strength and hold for the screws. Hope this helps. I will be glad to send you inserts if you still want them. If so, email sales@h2oproshop.com. Thanks.

 

[BraceMaker]

@phil2360 - this might be a good time for a G10 plate as well.... more surface area.

[Phil2360]

Actually got a HO Level Binding on on it ATM. Screw holes are a bit too wide for the embedded aluminium strips embeded in the ski.

 

@MattP, did think of an adaptor plate, would be a fair bit more work than inserts, & actually currently got just screws into the deck as well as some velcro to help take some of the load away from the screws.

 

Sure I can get plenty of resin/epoxy etc around the inserts to increase their strength & will still keep the velcro to help share the load.

 

Hey it's an old 1980 Trick ski, but still serves the purpose of getting a bit of a change from slalom at times when conditions are bad on the course, but edges of the lake are still OK.

 

Always a bit of fun to try & maintain my 1000 odd point trick run, as it is some 30 odd years later.

 

 

[RichardDoane]

@phil2360 - PM/ or email me your address and I'll grab some from Wiley's and "post them on down" for you, you can just paypal me after I know what the USPS charge is, or donate to the BOS "tip jar"

 

 

[BraceMaker]

Ahhh a trick ski! - reflex bonds.

[DUSkier]

I do not know a lot about Dual Lock but would it be easiest just to Dual Lock it on? Seems like it would be a lot easier than putting in inserts etc Is their a "Stronger" hold in different types????

http://www.shop3m.com.au/3M_Dual_Lock_TB3550_250_250_Black_p/at010587841.htm

[Phil2360]

Got some organised,

Big thanks to @richarddoane, for going out of his way to do a favor for a

fellow Baller.

 

@horton, this is one of the real benefits of being a part of this site.

 

Thanks again Richard. Most appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

Phil.

 

Looking like another day of shitty, stormy weather here.

 

[MarcusBrown]

stainless screws + brass inserts is the best combo

 

stainless on stainless will seize up

[Phil2360]

Agree @MarcusBrown,

 

Also Hate Stainless in Aluminimum also, bad mix.

I've always put a bit of Loctite Anti-Seize on all fin screws. (The Grey Stuff).

For the Stainless screws in the inserts I last tried some Teflon Thread tape,

Hoping this might also stop them vibrating loose on the skis of the "Junior"

who constantly forget to check them.

 

Dunno if that's going to be a good

[Phil2360]

They arrived in the post today.

 

Thanks again @richarddoane. Bit amazing really, $6.20 for postage.

 

One of the big problems we face down here is a lot of vendors only use

the big couriers, UPS, Fedex etc & anything will cost a minimum of $75.00 to get here.

 

So if I can return the favor; if anyone up there wants something uniquely australian,

let me know. Will see what I can do.

 

Just no Kangeroos, Koala's, Emus or Wombats.

 

 

Cheers

 

Phil.

 

Top day here today. Did the 3:30 to 6:30 after school run.

Was Great! 35°c with the water up to 27°c.

 

[MCWyeth]

I read this entire thread to try to decide what type of inserts to use, and I think I am going to go with Brass, because my old ski (to be retrofitted with a new hole pattern) might see some saltwater.

 

I'm wondering what exact type of E-Z LOK insert I should be using:

http://www.ezlok.com/threaded-inserts-for-plastic

 

Threaded inserts for metal or wood, even though it is going into neither of those? Inserts that are non-threaded for going into plastic?

 

I'm having a hard time telling what to do here. I am going to be attempting to put a modern hole pattern into a few old Connelly wide-body skis.

 

Also, I know that when drilling Alpine and Cross Country snow skis for a certain hole pattern, a jig is typically used. (I did a whole bunch of snow skis some time ago, so I just purchased the jig.) Does anyone make a jig with the modern front waterski binding hole pattern, or a jig with the modern rear Connelly binding hole pattern?

 

thanks in advance!

[skialex]

I can not suggest brand but wood inserts is what you want

[MCWyeth]

Ok great, thanks @skialex ! That narrows it down to these three models:

http://www.ezlok.com/ezknife-insert-400-008

http://www.ezlok.com/ezhex-insert-900832-10

http://www.ezlok.com/ezhex-insert-800832-10

which are all slightly different (first is for hardwood, the others are for soft wood; and the soft wood ones either have a flange or not.)

 

Which one of these types of inserts are people talking about when discussing putting an insert into an old ski that originally didn’t have any inserts?

[skialex]

@MCWyeth the first one, the other two are not brass, also the first one is the right size 8-32. The other two are steel or zinc, not brass. Flanged or not flanged, what ever you prefer. You can find flanged brass 8-32 inserts or plated brass, but the ones at the first link are the style I usually use. Slot side down, round side up, use a screw with a nut to lock against the insert to install them.

[Fehlindra]

the D3 inserts with flange is nice ones just don't know where to find em elsewhere than at the D3 store

[MCWyeth]

Oh, that is interesting, I did not know D3 made inserts. These are the ones, correct?:

http://www.d3skis.com/product-p/16270.htm

 

I would be excited to specifically support a ski company, especially if it’s something they’ve tested, and customers are already happy with.

 

Does anyone know if those D3 inserts require some sort of retention plate under the fiberglass, or if they will be OK just going in to glass and foam?

[Fehlindra]

yee its them,, the foam doesnt have any solidity intended to keep the inserts in place common failure on Goode skis dont know if they changes that now and use the plastic blocks like radar and maybe other manufacturer have

[eleeski]

For honeycomb skis or skis with weak foam cores, I hog out some of the core, add some steel wool to the JB Weld and fill the void with that. Install the inserts (there are some other threads describing the installation process in detail). Tip the ski upside down and apply some heat. This makes a reasonable aftermarket reinforcement for the inserts.

 

Eric

[MCWyeth]

I talked to D3 today and interestingly enough their inserts are not stainless steel or brass, as are mostly talked about in this thread.

 

One thing that came up on my phone call is of course what the insert is being put into. If it is going into foam, as stated above, it would probably need some reinforcement. Is the reference to "JB Weld" really meant to mean any 2-part epoxy?

 

Is there any concern that certain types of re-enforcing resin (polyester or epoxy) might react with the foam used inside, let's say, a 20-year old Connelly wide-body ski?

[eleeski]

@MCWyeth JB Weld is a 2 part epoxy brand that is very strong with a long pot life. It will not damage any core material. It wets out steel wool nicely with a little bit of heat. Cures overnight. Available at most hardware stores.

 

JB Quik is a fast set epoxy. Not as strong but decent adhesive properties. Flows nicely with the heat but your work window is short.

 

Other epoxies will work as well.

 

Polyester resins don't bond as well as epoxy, can attack Styrofoam and ABS (your old Connelly had ABS tops), aren't as strong and are less dimensionally stable. I avoid them. Bondo is super easy to work with but doesn't last - the popular polyester resin based product. Polyester laminating resin works in a fresh layup but I haven't had good luck with repairs.

 

If D3 inserts aren't stainless or brass, use lots of anti seize. But I question this because all the D3 inserts I've worked on have been fine - even in salt water.

 

Eric

[skialex]

@eleeski d3 inserts are brass but plated, they are the nicest looking ones and they don’t wear easily and still look good after a long period of use even in salt water. We ski a lot in salt water in Greece.

[Ed_Johnson]

Just acquired the D3 Inserts... Before I use trial and error, does anyone know what size drill bit to use to install these. THX

 

 

[HighAltitude]

Does the JB Weld at the bottom of the insert make the setup essentially waterproof. I thought maybe some of these waterski specific inserts would have a metal bottom.

[eleeski]

@HighAltitude Most foam ski cores are quite waterproof. So the JB Weld is irrelevant for waterproofing. Honeycomb cores need to be sealed and if you are careful JB Weld can seal well enough. It takes a lot of material and effort. But it seals well.

 

Eric

[HighAltitude]

I presume a carbon ski like the Omni Syndicate is honeycomb?

[eleeski]

Honeycomb is not in most slalom skis. I'm not sure of the Omni but foam cores work quite well for slalom skis. All the recent slalom skis I've worked on have been foam cores.

 

Most jump skis and a few trick skis use honeycomb.

 

My skis got lighter and more durable when I switched from honeycomb to foam cores. Foam core technology is improving as are layup techniques.

 

When you start working on your insert installation/repair it will probably be pretty clear what kind of core you have.

 

Eric

[BraceMaker]

@HighAltitude understand most every ski the core is completely exposed in the fin slot.

 

Pull your fin box sometime and check it out.

 

They ski is constructed with out a slot, placed into a jig and the slot cut through it.