So, Why Is Tip Rise So Bad?

[35 in the bag]

Having watched dozens of short line (-38 and shorter) passes on video over the last day or two, it is clear that tip rise at the end of the turn is the common occurrence……not the exception. It is pretty much a constant. I didn’t count, but I estimate that 95% of all turn finishes I watched had some sort of tip rise. Go look for yourself in an earlier thread. I define tip rise as the comparison of having less ski in the water at the finish than immediatly earlier in the turn and later in the pull. Of the few times there was no tip rise, frequently it looked like the skier nearly ended up in a “lean-lock”……..very heavily loaded…….and yes, very early into the next ball......but.....

 

Also, not quite as frequently, I’ll say 75% or more of the time, the ski was manipulated to point down course at the finish. I define this as any ski angle which is pointed more down course than immediately earlier in the turn and/or immediately before the angle of the ski in the pull.

With the preponderance of video evidence of good & great skiers doing this, why is it then that we commonly think these are “bad” things to have happen at short-line and that something needs to be corrected?

 

Is it only because it doesn’t “look like” “good form”? It isn’t “smooth”?

 

I now challenge us to think of this differently. Maybe this is an essential skill to be learned as the line gets really short.

 

I still firmly believe that this “tip rise/point down course” manipulation results in conservation of speed/momentum while waiting for the hook-up. Also, that it aborts the end of the turn so that the skier doesn’t “over turn” and waste precious momentum which would need to be immediately made back up during the pull/lean.

 

John M.

 

[Klundell]

I'm always up for listening to some outside of the box thinking but the tip rise that we see is always a result of a mistake in the course at some point. Usually I find that the tip rise is a result of preparing for the hit when there is slack line. I do this on my heal side turn all the time. Is it an ideal way of skiing... NO! But is it a skill that I utilize to run my toughest passes... yes. That being said I would much rather run my 38's like TW. I think with more OM 1/4 speed videos we will see the less moving around on the ski and resulting in less tip rise. With the exception of Rossi he is one of those guys that utilizes time rise and if you are looking for a way to implement tip rise he would be the guy to study.

[Than_Bogan]

You've got an intriguing point here.

 

As a math geek, I always relate back to the geometry, and it's simply impossible to resist against the boat's direction when the rope is perpendicular. Even when the rope is pretty close to perpendicular, any force you'd try to apply in that direction is greatly diminished by the angle.

 

The take-home is that "pulling" right off the buoy at very short line lengths is of little-to-no value. And it's actually a net negative, because with nothing to pull on you'll just end up losing speed right when you want to be gaining it. This is where the "ski back to the rope" idea comes in and is critical to short line skiing.

 

But what this actually looks like may well be a little bit of "tip rise" and "loss of direction." If you go directly for the max angle, what can you then do other than start pulling, and we just established that isn't what you want to do yet!

 

That said, the 1/4 speed thing is a bit confusing in some ways. The tip rise we're seeing here is actually extremely brief, and seems to me to be more the natural result of acceleration in the cross-course direction. It then almost instantly goes back down.

 

I claim this is totally different from the form of tip rise that is seen on us mortals, and even more so on intermediate skiers. Shifting the weight to the back of the ski and getting into a state where just the thin tail is in the water results in rapidly traveling downcourse without travelling cross-course at all.

 

So I think this is how to evaluate whether tip rise is good or bad. If the skier is travelling downcourse but not cross-course, this is bad. If the skier is travelling cross-course but briefly sees the tip pop up, this is fine. I'm not quite willing to call it "desirable" just yet -- more like "acceptable." But perhaps I could be convinced.

[Horton]

I think the perfect turn does not have tip rise. It ends far inside the ball line and water speed is as high as possible. Tip rise means a loss of water speed and angle.

[Horton]

Go back and watch Greg's 38 here http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/55047

 

He got a little rushed at 5 and got a little more tip rise. It still looks better than most skiers...

[ForrestGump]

I still maintain that of all the high end 41 off skiers(both 34 and 36) I've skied with and driven for, when they've gotten tip rise and pointed the ski down course, they've ALL said "DAMN! That was stupid!" No one ever says "I need to point the ski downcourse more". Without fail, they always want MORE angle, not less when they get to 38, 39, 41.

[The_MS]

Tip rise = lost time.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

35 – Excellent observations.

 

Tip rise means that the ski (and skier) is not finishing the turn in the optimum position to accelerate. Generally tip rise is caused by the skier frantically trying to turn as sharp and hard as he can. This shows up at the shorter lines because there is so much speed and the skier has to sacrifice speed to make the turn and generate as much angle as he can. Think of tip rise being the result of the skier stomping on the brakes with his back foot

 

The other observation about “manipulating the ski” is typically a result of overturning (90 degrees), the tip rising (loss of time and angle) and then having to reset to a more manageable angle. The resulting angle is usually more downcourse than across, and much less than the skier would achieve if he had kept the tip down and maintained speed.

 

Horton was right in an earlier post about watching Terry Winter's 32 off pass. Keeping the tip down is the goal -it just gets much harder as the line gets shorter.

 

One thing that you need to keep in mind is that while tip rise is a bad thing, many of the really good short-line skiers get away with it because they don't panic – they will pause, let the tip come back down, then get after it. Certainly not ideal technique, but one that lets you get away with the mistake of “stomping on the brakes”.

[thompjs]

Chad's 38 has very little tip rise

[35 in the bag]

@ Horton,

 

The Badal video supports the point I was making. At 38 the tip rise is there, albeit subtle, at every turn,..... well except 6 I believe. It is of course more pronounced @ 5. At 39 it is very significant at every turn. Look closely.....it is almost always there to one degree or another at these line lengths. Do show me a video w/o it if you know of one.

 

Bruce I think you are on to the main underlying factor. Part of the short line turn IS a hard turn because of the speed carried into the buoy which was necessary to get wide (advance on the boat). And to make that turn puts more load on the ski and the skier in a position to easily, almost naturally, over turn, especially if closed off. Just think back to all the times any of you tossed the handle near the end of the turn rather than taking the hit. In that case you overturned, dug a hole, lost that precious speed and momentum. Look at where you settled into the water..... much more up course than you think. You used all of your stored momentum to turn almost 90 degrees cross course and it got you nowhere....you only picked up the 1/2. A good friend always touted the fact that the course IS very long....and not so wide......use it!

 

Now back to the point. The heavily loaded ski near the end of the turn seems to want to unload.....if you'll let it. Here is the benefit...... if there is less load on it then there is less energy being lost to the water during that oh-so-critical moment when one is being patient and skiing back to the point of hook-up.

 

Look at what the spray does right at the point of the subtle tip rise/finish of turn............its’ mass & volume is drastically reduced. Spray equals energy........ less spray means less energy being sacrificed to the water. So to me the point of “stomping on the breaks” is not what is really going on here. Rather, this is the point of patience and then the reset of the ski at, or slightly after hook-up.

 

There is no question one can ski a 32 with no tip rise. But the angles are drastically less at 32 and you can meaningfully hook-up much closer to the buoy line than at 38 and shorter.

 

I am also coming to believe that countering and staying countered/open throughout the turn helps to prevent the overturn scenario and to skiing back to the point of hook-up.

 

John M.

[ForrestGump]

To add to something Bruce mentioned, although one of these elite skiers can get away with tip rise by being patient, it IS bad because during that delay in hooking up, the boat is going away from you and moving downcourse. To then reach the point at the other side of the course to be able to turn that buoy, the skier has to put it to the wood, which then has the ability to create an abundance of speed and less width into that next buoy. If you keep doing it repeatedly, the amount of distance the boat moves downcourse starts adding up.

[Lieutenant Dan]

I think that I started all of this about the tip rise in my comments about Larson and the "transition" from Tip up, ski headed downcourse to tip down, ski headed across course. Bruce B says above the they just

"pause, let the tip come back down, then get after it". Is it really this simple? As a 15/22 off type skier I've been told to be patient with my turns. Is it really JUST being patient, or is there more to it? Hips up, chest out, trailing arm pressure, shoulders back, all of the above?

[Gloersen]

Perhaps a no "tip rise" video of JB for perspective; especially that 41off 1B!

[Than_Bogan]

The "problem" with Jamie is that he's so obsenely powerful that he can hold angle (and therefore forces) that would absolutely destroy most of the rest of us.

 

Try doing what Jamie does and you'll just have that "turned it too hard to hold on" feeling.

 

Nevertheless, even in that video Jamie does experience tip rise -- he just doesn't ever experience a loss of direction.

[jimbrake]

Bingo on what Horton said re: the perfect turn.

[35 in the bag]

Gloersen,

 

Jamie's video again makes my point. There is tip rise at virtually every turn you can see begining at 38 off (see 1 @ 38 - pause it at 24 seconds in, its a huge tip rise)........ 2 @ 38 has very little, can't see 3 or 4. 5 has quite a bit. Also look at 1 @ 39 (41 seconds in).

 

1 @ 41 is an amazing turn and hook-up. But according to the definition I outlined above...there is tip rise....only it's kinda disguised. Pause at 58 seconds and there it is. Much less ski in the water than a moment before. It happens so fast that you miss it at real time.

 

 

[Gloersen]

We are not on the same page; there is virtually no tip rise of ill effect in JB's entire set. After re-reading the 1st paragraph of your 1st post; based on that definition, yes perhaps "tip rise" exists. However the tip rise that might be considered a "flaw" in technique is stomping on the brakes and a loss of direction as described above (Butterfield).

 

JB in this set does an incredible performance of using & maintaining speed throughout the pre-turn, turn, (the whole pass) to create sustainable angle and maintaining direction as pointed out by TB.

 

@Than Bogan if I could do what JB does it would be one set when I didn't feel that "turned it too hard to hold on" feeling; a sensation all too familiar from trying to stop the boat to create angle too often. JB's set epitomizes avoiding excessive load off the ball but rather the use of speed, direction, center of mass momentum, not to mention balance, strength, athleticism.

 

Looking forward to rippin tomorrow & having the driver state: "you had tip rise on that pass, looked like JB." I'll take that every time at any line.

 

You started a good thread, it's all fun stuff!

[Than_Bogan]

@Gloerson, I think you're hitting on the key point, which I tried to make in my first post: Not all tip rise is equal.

 

As far as Jamie, though, I've had the great fortune of watching him up close from the water and in the boat. His technique is absolutely awesome, but he loads the snot out of the line just about right off the ball. I know for certain that I could not hold that even one time.

 

Sometimes it can backfire to try to immitate the best athletes. When I am trying to look for technical models, I look at women. They're still stronger than I am, but at least in the ballpark!

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Quote of the day: ”When I am trying to look for technical models, I look at women. They're still stronger than I am, but at least in the ballpark!” That's ripe for too many comments, but I won't touch it!

 

35- are you watching the same video? Jamie's tip rise is very small compared to the other recent postings. Now consider that he's at 39 and 41 at 36mph compared to the others at 38 and 39 at 34mph and you should see what keeping the tip down does to your performance. He is carrying speed and completing the turn with very near perfect angle – otherwise he wouldn't get through 41.

 

Lt.Dan – for skiers in the 15/22 range, tip rise is usually a result of poor angle across course. OB is right. The main problem is you have to generate speed and angle long before worrying about what happens in the turns. Get WIDE on your gates get some speed, then you can worry about the turns (but you will be a loop or 2 shorter).

[MrBrown]

I have to agree with 35 in the Bags's observation about tip rise especially at 39 and 41. Although it may not be the perfect turn, it seems as though it is what a majority of the skiers do to some degree who run 39. But why?

 

I feel that there is a transition that the skier has to make between a 38off turn and a 39off turn. At 39off, I feel that the skier has to consciously attempt to turn the ski more downcourse, almost to the extent that the skier may feel that he is almost pointing the ski at the very next turn buoy. David Nelson and Rossi talk about how this goes against your perception.

 

One Big Dawg skier told me that at the end of the turn at 39off he immediately finds the next turn buoy out in front of the boat, in an attempt not to overturn into too much angle. It must be noted that he doesn't use this technique at 38off.

 

At 38off a skier can be patient to allow the ski to finish smoothly and then can hook up and continue to ski the course smoothly. I feel that the problem at 39off is that because the ski is rolled up on a higher turning edge throughout the turn, this causes the ski to turn slightly harder than at 38off, and to turn into too much angle, as 35 in the Bag has described. What I have experienced at 39 in this situation, if I am strong enough to hold onto the excessive cross course angle, I am coming into the next buoy too early causing me to apex to soon before the buoy, causing me to miss the pass.

 

After talking to ski coach Mike Kusiak a few years ago and watching Karina and Regina run less than perfect 39’s, I feel one of the keys to running 39 is just attempting to apex the ski at the buoy and not before it. This means at the end of the turn, the skier is turning his ski further downcourse than at 38. This offers the lowest load possible and the slowest skiing speed possible. It still allows for the skier to make a mistake (Larson, Karina, Regina, etc) and still run the pass.

 

 

[matteoianni]

ZO, as we have it right now, triggers long term reactions (sometimes longer than the skiers pull, if the load decelerates the boat more than a presetted value). That has changed dramatically how people "manage" their turns.

 

Lets take two opposite sides of the spectrum:

A) a 90° turn: it causes the boat to recover in a much longer time frame, leaving the skier with an open throttle all the way through the next buoy.

B) a tip rise: (normally caused either by excessive tip pressure in the earlier stages of the turn or by excess of speed - or a combination of both) it will cause a much more gradual load that will make ZO friendlier.

 

Most skiers, at their harder passes, are now leaning towards the latter, either consciously or unconsciously, while beginners do it unintentionally - I'm using too many adverbs. That's even because after rising the tip only once, the skier will initiate a downward spiral that makes tip rising much more likely in the next buoys: later pull, more speed after the wakes, excess of speed at the buoy, TIP RISE.

JB skied those 2 buoys at 43 off behind PP, a system that is much more forgiving in case A) and much less forgiving in case B).

 

Ciao!

 

 

 

 

[Triplett]

I finally joined this forum and this subject is very intriguing. I experience the most tip rise at 39 for sure. For me I have noticed is from a shift from my front foot in the pre-turn to the heel in the finish. I do this to bring the ski around faster. It is for sure not good, for example, out of 3 ball at 39 I get tip rise, fall back, and slingshot to the next buoy. I do this less on the 2,4,6 side but it is still there.

 

To touch on @skiing2heaven comments on transition from 38 to 39 turns, I feel this is completely true. You absolutely run 38 super early, back siding the buoy. At 39 if you try to do, at least in my experience, you have issues with being too early. As long as your speed is up into the turn at 39 and you force the ski to turn down course you will be in a good spot to the next buoy.

 

My perspective is from 36mph, comments from my 34 ski partners are much the same for 39, although I can imagine you have to work harder for the width.

 

This video is of me skiing, you can see the tip rise.

 

[A_B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1fZWr6vW9c

 

I would ski like this girl anyday, maybe even on a pink Radar..... I am always amazed at how you see some awesome passes with tip rise or out and out wheelies. They obviously are getting the work done behind the boat, but don't seem to let the tip rise take too long, or take them too far downcourse.

 

[MrBrown]

Hey Brent Triplett, super smooth skiing even with the tip rise! Awesome stuff!

 

Heck, me too AB including the Pink Ski! haha Regina's video is a classic, thanks for posting!

 

One other thing that may support why "tip rise is not so bad" is that the ski will accelerate faster on the tail, and is fastest on its tail, with less load and drag cross course. Watch Chad Scott's, Larson’s, Regina's vids and see how fast they get cross course with more weight distributed on the tail of the ski even after a tip rise in tha case of Larson and Regina.

 

Also, that little bit of hesitation during the tip rise may allow the skier to lock into a strong stacked position (elbows locked to vest, chest out, hips up, handle in pocket/power triangle), before the skier picks up the load of the boat.

 

I totally agree that Tip Rise is not part of the perfect slalom turn, but a skier maybe able to make it work to his advantage!

[6balls]

Seriously smooth, and another guy who rotates the handle into the offside.

 

Agree with Ski2heaven on the point of apex and less angle requirement as the line gets really short. The one's I blow are the one's where I take too much angle out of the turn at shortline. Longer lines easy to get away w/it.

[Gloersen]

Great thread, all the favorite topics.

 

Tip rise: technique vs result, ZO vs PP

 

ZO: load early vs. load late vs. minimize load.

 

New Ski Design: need more tip down to turn and efficiently create speed & direction across course vs. riding the tail to so “that the ski will accelerate faster on the tail, and is fastest on its tail, with less load and drag cross course” (which of course brings into play perception vs. reality).

 

Fin settings: not yet broached, but to accomplish any of the above “differences”

 

Finally, women: complex vs. simple. In either event, under suitable circumstances; there is always tip rise.

 

[ForrestGump]

With only 1 or 2 buoys being the exception, I don't consider anything I see in Brent's video above to be tip rise. NOTHING like the Larson video which brought this conversation to the forefront, where you could read almost the entire bottom of the ski as it was pointed at the boat at most of the buoys.

[Chef23]

If you watch video of Chris Parrish or Nate Smith they run 39 and 41 with very little tip rise. I am amazed that Regina runs 39 the way that she does but she is obviously very strong.

[ForrestGump]

Regina is a beast!

 

[matthewbrown]

If there is tip rise in the turn, then either the skier is pulling too long or they are just transferring their weight to the back foot(or both)...on Brent's passes there are slight tip rises on 32 and 35 on his onside but it's not from pulling too long it's just from pressing on the back foot slightly..he was perfect coming into the buoy and that's all you can ask for now what you do with that situation comes down to your balance, athletic ability, etc...let's face it you aren't always going to make perfect turns even when the set up is perfect....starting at 38 and more so at 39 he begins pulling longer into 1,3,5 carrying more speed ergo the tip rise on that side...notice there is no tip rise on 2,4....but, why is he pulling longer into 1,3,5? this brings me to my next point, he's more on the back of the ski when the load comes out of 2,4 then he is 1,3..notice where his hips are.........skiing2heaven you are right to some degree in that you can get more acceleration on the back of the ski, however, ownly momentarily, once his hips fall back behind his feet like from 4 to 5 at 38, you he looses his acceleration and creates more load making it mandatory for him to pull longer into the next turn...he is getting more constant speed out of 1,3,5 by staying centered over the ski which allows him to edge change earlier into 2,4. Take a look at Badal's video, he's way over the center of the ski with his hips and shoulders and is running a super early line..his tip rise comes from pulling a little too long b/c he gets so amped up but he's a beast and can handle it.

[Triplett]

Thanks for the comments guys! @matthewbrown is completely right. This is something that has been preventing me from running 39. The thread has some awesome conversation going on!

[35 in the bag]

Brent,

 

Your skiing has evolved in the last year and a half to be Spectacular. That said….. For All to Hear… you are using controlled tip rise at the end of the turn (the infamous finish) to maintain your momentum. It is smooth & beneficial & Cool. We should all be so lucky to ski with your skills.

You, being fun to watch, control the tip rise to “finish” your turn. We all wish we could ski with you’re balance and stacked position over the ski. ….. but this is not about you……. You are starting to figure it out. It’s about the rest of us…… who over-turn, overload and bow "out the front"!

 

BTW....Frozen Clio water Su<& s …..!!! & I truly hope you grow next year as well as you did this year.

 

ON TO THE POINT.

 

My initiation of the thread was not negative tip rise @ 22 off (stomping on the back of the ski).. or any other length for that matter ………….but rather the patient, ..pause,.,… that I see at 38 & 39 from the best skiers....after the ski has been highly pressured in the turn.

 

“The Finish” has seemed “to me” to be a myth…… a miss-understood, "clichés".

I have witnessed, time & time again, a ”finish”…., from great skiers,…which has tip rise ….. by my definition.

 

Contrarily, a finish which "closses off', over-turns, & just stalls,......fails......., for all but the "brutes" of our sport.

 

Contralily again >>>>> WE ALL AGREE THAT "''''''' STAYING OPEN THOUGHOUT THE THE TURN AND INTO THE PULL'''''' Is A "Goode Thing".... pun intended........which I am seeing leads to "tip rise" at the finish @ 38 and beyond. So,,,,,,, IS TIP RISE BAD? Think about an open body position and what that does to the ski....... it forces it up & out......at the end of the turn >>>>>I think<<<

 

Be clear, ….I’m not speaking to 32’ and below skiers who need to develop aggressive angle……..I’m talking to the 35 off guys who over-do-it at 38. Dig a hole and can’t hang on. …..All of us that dream of a top ten at Nationals.

 

Staying open throughout , and at the end of the turn, has helped me a bit. When I am open , my mass (my shoulderers & hips) are pointed to the next buoy (more-or less)…. This prevents the ski from over-turning. The challenge is that I only do it right one –out-of-three times,….. which does not get me too far into my hardest pass too often here in Michigan.

 

Still, I have experienced………..

 

There is a special moment at the well executed end of the turn at 38 & 39 that the hook-up is “more-or-less” silky smooth with immense energy which just plain works!!!

 

And tip rise, by design, intention, or not, …….may “finish” the turn @ 38 & 39 w/o “over-doing-it” (or not over turning)…..allowing more speed into the hook-up and more cross course angle due to “that” speed.

 

The more I see this on video.... the more I realize this is an important "One of the Ten Things in Slalom" which I must consider to learn to control... also I work on staying stacked....and the power triangle...and handle control (always thankyou BB) ......in the pull. ...off the wake.....into the turn, trailing arm pressure (thankyou MB), forcing myself open in the pre-turn and throughout the turn-pull.

 

Isn't this a wonderful monster ........... Like above,,,,,=== I look at the girls.... If they can ski with massive "TIP-RISE"' .....then maybe, as a man, ....I should be able to too. ha

 

I agree... it's all fun!

 

Please let the debate continue!

 

John M.

[A_B]

 

What I see in successful 39 and 41 with tip rise is that the skier immediately pulls the ski down and points stratight across the wake (or attempts to). I have run passes with tip rise where I feel this because I get mad or whatever and just throw it down, but that is not my nomal "style" if I have one. The pros at this seem to look like that is their style and think nothing of it.

 

I think the key is the immediate angle and lean into the wakes and then getting off it. Agree that the extra speed or late edge change causes the excess speed and fin load that pops the tip up. Strickly speaking, if the tip pops up, you should shallow the fin or add length. Take away depth and you don't hold edge as well, add length and you ski narrower. So maybe better to keep less wetted surface in the water behind the boat (like a drag boat) and deal with the consequences in the turn?

 

Brett - I ran one of my first 35's many years ago at your lake. Remember it well, because it was freezing and I was not sure how I was able to do it with goose pimples on goose pimples.

[MrBrown]

Good stuff!!!

 

Heres' Regina's 2 @ 41 world record video!

 

 

Please watch Regina's 38off and 39off pass and compare where her ski is finishing and pointing at the end of each turn. Also compare where the ski seems to be apexing at each line length.

 

It appears to me that at 38off she is turning into more cross course angle and holding that angle,..than at 39. At 39 she appears to be turning more downcourse (especially at 3 and 5 ball) and waiting for the hookup with the boat with a slight hesitation, and also apexing much closer to the buoy.

[6balls]

The apex must be closer to the buoy at extreme shortline cuz it's the only way to have enough width. The means a little less cross course angle and a later apex.

As an angle monster, my biggest problem is getting too early at shortline...out to max width up course from the ball (apex too early). It's not possible to just hold myself out there at max width and ski down course waiting for the ball at 38 and beyond.

At 35 off and longer, no issue. At those lines one can apex upcourse of the ball at a width significantly wider than the ball and be coming in on the backside.

Whether my tip rises or not at the finish, I continue to believe the key to this thing is outbound off the second wake on the turning edge to apex. For me this is tougher to properly accomplish than a great turn and hook up to the wake.

[MrBrown]

@6balls I agree totally. Being too early at the buoy can be as bad as being too late! This is why David Nelson believes that skiing all your line lengths on the same path/line as your hardest pass is the key. Your body, mind, perception are all conditioned and trained to be on that same narrow but efficient path which is apexing closer to the buoy at all line lengths. Your ski is also tuned to ski that same path at all line lengths also. This will help to eliminate the perception of being late into the next buoy!

[6balls]

It's tough cuz most of us feel late if not wide/early. Difficult mindset to break and this can mess w/a skier at shortline where patience required. I toyed w/trying to ski angles at longer lines more like shortline so that I practice whats important for shortline on all passes. Didn't have enough time to really experiment.

Wide/early 28, 32, 35 builds confidence in the set particularly in tourneys...so not sure what to do. Lots of time to think about it...1-3 inches of snow coming today.

[Horton]

This whole too much ski in the water thing... Best skier in the world today has a lot of ski in the water all the time except when he makes a mistake.

 

View all

Get your own

 

[Horton]

Sure there is a little tip rise. I would suggest that most skiers are too far back on the ski from the apex to the wakes. It is possible to be too far forward but for most readers here that is not a reality.

[Horton]

@skiing2heaven Regina is the greatest female skier of the current era does anyone really want to ski with her style?

[danbirch]

It would seem to me that Nate must ski on his front foot. How much rear foot can one ski on with a RTP?

 

Also, Reginas latest tapes look like her style is changing...ALOT. Looking more like Nate. Awesome!

[matthewbrown]

@Horton..."This whole too much ski in the water thing... Best skier in the world today has a lot of ski in the water all the time except when he makes a mistake" couldn't of said it better myself. Nate runs 41 easier then we've ever seen, and nowhere is he on the back of the ski with hips up leaning back. His hips are underneath him and he's stacked, but he's leaning to the inside, always staying ahead of his ski. Doesn't mean you can't ski on the back of the ski and still make it work, it's just not the most efficient way to do it. You can always point out great skiers who use the back of the ski and have learned to ski well this way. It's not like it's a giant disadvantage in fact I think in some skiers case because they have only learned to ski this way, it is an advantage for them as they like the slower feel making it easier for them to control the transisitons and they don't get too early as @skiingtoheaven was talking about which can be a big problem especially at 34...it's just that as the line gets shorter, it catches up to you. Especially at 36.

[MrBrown]

@Horton I totally agree with you that Nate is the Best Skier on the Planet at 36mph. Simply amazing! I also feel that Jeff Rodgers with his "stick style" of skiing maybe the Best Skier on the Planet at 34mph. Amazing also! Two different styles getting the job done.

 

@Horton As for Regina, she had a really nice 39 in her last World Record Video 2 @ 41.

 

Way to go Regina! Congrats!!!! (Is she single by any chance?!?! ha )

[Horton]

@skiing2heaven As the admin around here I am kind of weary about slalom ideas that sound unconventional.

 

There are so many common misconceptions in skiing. A large percent of the skiers who write here are much more advanced than the average reader so I get nervous about technical minutia that can be misunderstood. The idea of intentionally having less ski in the water seems like something a guy who runs 38 up and down the lake might toy with. For a less accomplished skiers I think this is a really super bad idea. (You many dissagree but I have to throw it out for the average reader)

 

I am not saying you are wrong but I am saying that the idea or the way it is being presented is on the fringe.

 

As far as Regina’s skiing, it is smoother in the last few years but the fact that she has traditionally wheelied so much and still crushes the short line is baffling to me. I mean she is clearly the best female slalom skier in the world but I would much rather ski like April or Karina.

 

[MrBrown]

@Horton Thanks John for allowing me to participate in this amazing forum! I truly appreciate that! I understand your viewpoint as Adim. and I certainly don't want share any techniques or concepts that could be detrimental to anyone's skiing! I only want what is best for all the skiers on BOS.

 

To be honest, Chad Scott in his 1/4 speed video skis with less ski in the water than I do. I wouldn't want any skier to ski further back than Chad in his video, or further back than Jeff R, or Lucky. It would be counter-productive.

 

Robert Marking 35off @ 34mph (seeing how slow and narrow I could run the course!)

 

 

I think that what I am saying is being misinterpreted. It maybe my fault for using the wrong terminology.

 

As for Regina, I don't really want to ski like her,......I just want a date!!!! ha

 

Thanks again!!!

[danbirch]

I appreciate hearing everyone's perspective (especially the pro's). It helps to hear about different methods, so I can decide which works best for me. The most important thing, is to ski safe/smart, since, MOST of the people here will never earn $1.00 from their skiing, and as we have seen, some injuries can be very, very serious.

[MrBrown]

Here's a skier that initiates the pull for his gates with more "tip rise" than any other skier I know.

 

But why? I believe I read somewhere that that he feels that it was the most efficient way to pull out with the least amount of load.

 

[ForrestGump]

See, I really don't consider Rossi to have tip rise. Yes, he likes a freer tip, but he has a lot of ski engaged in the water during the turn in, and all of the turns. Regina is awesome, but she has tons of tip rise at 1/3/5. Same with Favret. Both of them, you can see the bottom of the ski pointed at the boat. But they are strong as an ox and just lay the ski over from there to get across. You never see that from Rossi, as he always keeps the ski either moving one direction or the other off of the apex.

[MrBrown]

@ShaneH wrote - But they (Regina, Favret) are strong as an ox and just lay the ski over from there to get across.

 

@ShaneH - Yes, I think that they are both very strong but more importantly I feel that they get more leveraged than most skiers also. It is hard to win a tug of war with someone who is both strong and leveraged! But is the "tip rise" that they are experiancing a bad thing???

 

Getting back why @35inthebag started this topic, in an attempt to understand what may be the hidden benefits of "tip rise", I posted Rossi's video showing his "tip rise" on his pullout for his gates.

 

Rossi must feel that there is some benefit to this technique, but what are they. Could the benefits be one of the reasons how Regina, Larson (1/4 speed video) are able to run 39 with so much "tip rise"?

 

Here is what Rossi wrote in the article "Keys to Slalom Gates" regarding this technique!

 

http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/Instructional%20Articles/Slalom/SlalomGates.pdf

 

 

"When you reach the bottom of your fall,

the upper body will catch a small amount

of load. This load picks up the skier and

releases the ski. You will just feel yourself

rising up and the only thing you should

think about is letting the ski go wherever it

wants to go. The freer your fall was in the

last stage, the more energy you create. This

energy is what makes the ski shoot from

side-to-side. When watching a pro skier, it’s

almost shocking to see how much energy

exudes through the edge change."

[matthewbrown]

Rossi rips it...have you seen him snow ski though???