Administrators Horton Posted November 1, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 1, 2011 There has been lots of discussion between several Masters Men skiers that would like to go 35 Mph. There is also a group that doesn’t really want to go 35mph. We would like to ask the Rules Committee for a blessing to have a rules exception to add an extra class into a Class C tournament. This would mean that a qualified MM could elect to ski 35mph as an extra division to gather data and see if this would be something that would be good for our sport. Our rules do not allow this speed so it would mean the scores couldn’t count towards any AWSA rankings list scores. Because we cannot get a score in that division, we would also like to ski in our regular division for a score. This is not allowed per rule 1.02 but we feel since only one score is counted in the regular division that it should be allowed. We would like to compile the data and feed back to bring a possible change to the division. We would also during this time have a survey put together. We also feel that this division should be a mandatory choice. If you choose to ski in this division then you will stay in this division. This speed can be considered and advantage to both the 34 and 36 mph skiers so we don’t think those scores should be interchangeable and not allowed per rule 10.06©. Thank you for your consideration and feedback. Greg Badal for 35MPH Committee Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ DW Posted November 1, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 1, 2011 To make a comparison to present the case, consider the SCCA or even NASCAR. Any competitior can race in any of the 25 classes that compete on any given weekend, you just pay the entry fee and run. There are several competitors that compete in 2/3 classes on the same weekend event. NASCAR, as you know JTH, allows competitors to compete in multiple classes, they just added a recent rule that you are only allowed to collect points in one class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemsondave Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I think it's a great idea. I'd love to try 35. One big hurdle will be the zero based scoring system. How will 35mph be scored? 3 extra buoys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted November 1, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 1, 2011 I think 35 is a great idea for Masters Men, as I feel it needs something to set it apart from the age divisions. I'd be on the fence for M3 changing to 35, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted November 1, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 1, 2011 M3 should stay at 34. MM 35 would be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted November 1, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 1, 2011 I too think it is a great idea,,, However their is already a MM division that hardly no one will participate in. Keep in mind that in men 3,4,5and even men 6 (yes even men 6!) their are quite a few that can compete at a national level together and make a very healthy division. Problem is that these guy's in their respective age group division's dominate them and are not willing to give up national placements or top 5 medals to compete in a division where they may find them selves out of the medal count , even though 1.5 buoy's could make the difference between 1st and 10th place. I was all on board for the MM division as I thought that these very very good men3-6 would jump at the chance to compete with those of equitable ability, this has not manifested itself. I think their is a place in the sport for a 35mph division and would encourage such a division however their needs to be rules regarding jumping back and forth between division's. Should men 3 speed be 35? I think not especially since girls speed is a whole lot easier! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GK Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 I think the last thing we need is another division (unless the proposal is for MM to be changed to 35 mph, but it doesn't sound like that is what's being proposed). I think all divisions should have the option to ski the max speed of 36 mph and be scored for the additional buoys that they receive (6 buoys per pass). This would allow people who want to go faster to ski faster and those who don't still have the option to go 34 mph. People could then stay in their own respective divisions and the MASTERS division could be awarded by taking the scores from ALL divisions M3 thru M10 who skied at 36 mph and awarding the TOP SKIERS from across all divisions. This eliminates the need for a seperate division to ski in and allows skiers to compete across divisions. No more heartache over not skiing in your age division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 More variables???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 Wish, other sports are similar. In comp bench press, it is far easier to podium in submaster (my age group) than in open men. There is a "novice" division of sorts for those never lifting a certain amount. Once that weight is exceeded one can no longer compete there. After that, nothing forces one into open as opposed to standard age group no matter what their comp lifting history. For podium/trophy/records only, it makes most sense to avoid open men. Similar to skiing where for national titles etc not a lot of incentive to ski MM. Agree we don't need yet another speed. We are complex enough. Maybe the MM guys get to ski their division, but then have a separate MM tourney where they go head to head against the best of MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller disland Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 It will work so long as we stick to the rule "once your in your in" no going back and forth during the calendar year. Then change the big dawg to 35 and then that will clear out the age groups. Everyone wins. The only people effected might be big dawg who are also 3 eventers. Not a long list of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 GK, Greg is only proposing a test division for 2012 so they can gather 35mph data. I think the intent would be that they would petition in 2013 for Masters Men to change to 35mph, based on that data, and then the test division would go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemsondave Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The only problem with 'once your in your in' is that when you hit the MM avg, you don't have a choice. They give you the MM qualification. There is a pretty big variance in the MM division. Being at the bottom, I'd like to try the 35mph, but if I had to choose one I'd stick with M3. Not because I want to place high, but because I don't want to ski 35 all the time (I don't think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted November 2, 2011 Supporting Member Share Posted November 2, 2011 I don't love the idea of MM skiing 35 just because I like to be able to compare scores to those guys. Of course, that issue could be solved by having all old guys ski at 35. I don't particularly oppose that, but then again I'd also ask "Why?" 36 is damn fun. 34 is damn fun. From this I can guess that 35 is damn fun, too, but I don't really see why more speeds is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted November 2, 2011 Supporting Member Share Posted November 2, 2011 And I guess while we're here, I'll get on my standard soapbox about MM in general: I think it's great to have actual Big Dawg tournaments, with a giant open (lower case "o") division. I'm all for the best old guys having a chance to compete without chopping them up. But I don't like to see MM and M3/4/5/6 co-existing in the same tournament, and this (especially) includes Regionals and Nationals. If there are age groups in use, then I want to see every age group title be the actual winner in that age group. Skimming off some, but not all, of the top skiers from each division, just makes everything weird. The same argument _almost_ applies to OM vs. B3/M1/M2. But my argument breaks down when considering M3+ skiers who wish to compete at 36 in OM. So perhaps OM has to remain as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 I think going 35 mph for MM and even M3 is a good idea. Like anything else it will be an adjustment like slowing down from 36 to 34 at age 35. I think it is a great idea to force the MM to ski in that division if qualified. The skier who drops down from MM to their respective division such as M3 or M4 for the regionals or nationals just to grab a metal or get into the top five does not have a competitive hair on his ASS. I would rather be 10th out of 10 in MM rather then first in M3.. The skier who drops down from MM can't say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 I think the 35mph concept is intriguing. Not sure the new division would have any more skiers than current MM division does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 dave2ball, the skier that does would however call themselves national champion. No one outside the sport knows any different (and half of them in the sport). As long as age divisions exist, they are legitimately the best in their age group on that day. Maybe MM shouldn't exist and they go ski Big Dawg to compete against the other best 34 mph skiers? Having said that...my bench press record is in open men. I'm proud to have whooped the other 198 lb class lifters regardless of age. Means nothing to those outside the sport but means something to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller bishop8950 Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 In response to Greg Exception to gather data on 35mph for MM - yes Survey - yes 1.02 exception – I think he is saying we should be able to ski one round at 34mph to get an official score, and a second round at 35mph to gather data but with no score. If yes, I agree, please Mandatory – When this came up before, my input was its not a big problem and I appreciate the current flexibility. This said, I don’t mind having to stay MM once I ski MM (currently have no M3 scores anyway). However, personally, I like the option of skiing OM but don’t want to have that cause mandatory presence in OM. If I had to vote on all or nothing mandatory, I vote mandatory, will ski MM, and wont ski Open. 10.06c – I am not sure what Greg is saying. 35mph all buoy counts can’t equate to 34 or 36mph buoy counts? If yes, I agree Generally, should MM go 35mph to differentiate from the other divisions? Yes please. Good points raised on whether its worth it, enough people, hassle, etc. I like Greg’s idea, let’s try it and see. This said, I have no idea how much of a hassle it will be for HQ and tournament organizers and officials. Kevin Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 6 Balls you are right in one case. That person is the best that day. But by calling somebody the best when that person when they have an average buoy count example of 2@41 and the best in the division has an avg buoy count of 5@38. His average has already out skied that division so of course he is going to be the best that day. When you get to the caliber of 38 39 and 41 off maybe your age should not have anything to do with what division you ski. Maybe USA should do a performance base after a certain line length to settle this problem that arises every year around Nationals. Combine 38 and 39 off for 34 mph skiers regardless of age Maybe MM should be shelved. Ever since the division came out there has been this controversy. I don't think there is an easy answer other then the Big Dawg will go on with or with out MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 I can't qualify for MM but I like the idea. I enjoy skiing 36mph more than 34 and have been playing around with 35. Surprise, it feels like a fast 34 but way more similar to 34 than 36. It does not hurt to try different things. I disagree about AWSA/USAWS not allowing this. I think they will if it is supported by the skiers. They made the rule change to allow us to ski 36mph in M3, M4, etc... even though hardly anyone does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Mateo_Vargas Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 I like the 35 mph idea but what will they be looking for in the data? I see all the qualified MM giving it a try during the trial but when it comes down to making a choice they will stay in their age division like they do now. And then you have the overall question for the 3-eventers so just make all Mens 34 mph age groups go 35 mph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemsondave Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Does anyone know how this will be decided? I have heard this has gotten pretty far up the ladder. It is not by a vote by MM skiers because I was not notified. Also, is this to make the MM division harder and more 'elite' or is it to make it easier for the 36mph skiers to make the transition? Either way, I am intrigued and want to give 35 a shot. Too bad our water is friggin cold! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted November 2, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 2, 2011 The sport needs a benevolent dictator! Someone who will make a decision and stick with it. 35 mph slalom should not be that big of a deal to bring into the picture. What the problem is that not a large percentage of membership will get reading on the same page! Agenda's!!! Now that is what is currently running the sport. The current changes of rules and procedures are not really for the betterment of the sport but are for someones or a small group's agenda! just a small sampling of this forum shows that their is a very wide ranging viewpoint on this proposed issue. one thing that has been suggested or discussed is crossing divisions, or mandatory placement into harder division. So far the MM experiment has been a disaster, the same group that wanted it has not moved into it and or stayed in MM. Our membership or those that set the parameters would not allow scores from MM to work in an overall format in age group or age group to MM. Australia has a great system that we could utilize some of their idealism in the sport. goes like this IWSF junior age group divisions, then men/women, Open women/men then over 35, over 45 over 55 over 65 over 75 over 85. at any time a older skier can drop down and ski in a younger division under the rules for that division. we could add MM and or 35 men! Fall season Rants!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller bishop8950 Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 Dave, I think the momentum stems from the fact the rules committee will convene soon and they consider proposed rule changes or exceptions, like the ones Greg has outlined. I dont know the formality of the process, but I think skier feedback (like that in this thread) is taken into consideration. I dont think we have a voting right. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 If we were to adopt this 35 MPH division how would it affect the world rankings? Would the IWSF adopt this new format? Or would this be an USA only ranked division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klundell Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 @dave2ball - I'm not so sure about your comment about "not having a competitive hair on his ass." I'm not yet the age to participate in the MM or M3 divisions but I did qualify in the OM division this year. My best finish in regionals is 3rd (this season) and I've never received a medal position at nationals (didn't go this year). That being said I did go to the Katy Ski Jam and ski in the Open Men division. It was a great experience but I can certainly say that I was a whole lot more "competitive" at regionals than I was at the Katy Ski Jam when I was just getting my ass handed to me by pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klundell Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I think the age divisions need to designate the top amateur athletes in our sport. But if you regularly compete for money either MM or OM then you need to be bumped into that class and stay there. I'm not sure where the line is but then you can make the MM speed whatever you want if you are required to stay in the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 Klundell you were there and able to compete with the pros. By getting your OM that gave you elite status. Not everybody can ski at that level OM or in a Pro event. I have more respect for what you did skiing at the ski jam and in your words "getting my ass handed to me " then somebody dropping down just to win a metal. Yes you do have a competitive hair on your ass congratulations on taking tat leap into the money events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 I have offered to present to board if Greg can get a significant number of MM skiers to sign a petition. That's the way things get recognized and approved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 Holy crap, Klundell...you're a 36 mph guy? Even more impressed than before at your incredible skiing this season. Dave2ball...this is killing me...it's not a metal if you win hardware, it's a medal. I hate it when my OCD gets the best of me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 Your right!! my bad I hate OCD I hate when it gets the best of me also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted November 2, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 2, 2011 I am a live and let live guy, but here is my concern. 90 pulls is a full day of skiing for a one lake tournament. 30 skiers, three rounds each. Lets say we are going to have four MM skiers at a tournament who are going to ski three rounds of MM55 and three of MM56.5. Is it going to be a 102 pull tournament, adding at least an hour to an already long day for skiers, drivers, officials, etc? Or are we going to limit the entries to 26 skiers, 22 who get to ski three times and 4 who get to ski six? Are the MM skiers going to pay one entry fee or two? If we are keeping entries to 30, how are we going to ensure that everyone skis at least three rounds before running out of light? If I skied twice and lost my last round because it was dark, I'd be pretty pissed if some other guy skied six times. If I drove all the way from New York to Trophy and that happened, I would really pissed. In reality, this won't effect me much because I ski most of my tournaments in the East and we have few MM guys. But I do go south, so I could be effected, therefore I feel free to voice my opinion. And in my opinion, if this will run the risk of negatively impacting any other skiers by time constraints, unreasonable lengthening of tournaments, limiting entries, or "we don't really have time for a full third round so you have to start the third round at the last full line length you ran in the second round", I am against it. If you want to do it at multi-lake sites where there will be no impact, and you don't mind paying two entries, and you can get enough drivers, boats, judges, scorers and safety personnel, have at it. Or have I completely misunderstood the proposal, and you are suggesting that you would ski 2 rounds of one speed and a third of another? If THIS is the proposal, I have no opinion one way or the other. John Wilkins Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted November 2, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 2, 2011 John, You have misunderstood. A MM skier wouldn't take 3 rounds of 34mph and 3 rounds of 35mph. They would just have the option to be scored in two different divisions for a tournament. Say 2 rounds in M3 or MM(at 34) and one round of MM35(at 35mph). Right now, there is a specific rule that prevents scoring in two different divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted November 3, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 3, 2011 Ah... That being the case, I am back to being a live and let live guy. I guess the speed control systems would have to be reprogrammed to run 56.5kph in tournament mode, but I suppose that would be pretty easy to do. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 For 2012, I'm sure they'd do like they do now for tournaments where they have dropped open men back to 35 which is to put it into rec mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemsondave Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I'm not sure that will fly unless you enter it as a fun class. There are no 35mph times in WSTIMS. They will have to modify ZO and our scoring software. I understand they are proposing a test year, but how would it even get into the system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 They would have to add a division to wstims if it were to be run as class C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Deanoski Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 I think if you want to ski 35 you should just step it up and ski at 36!! at 47 I dont want to ski at 35 34 is fine with me my 2 cents Deano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted November 3, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 3, 2011 So if 34 is girls speed! And 36 is man speed! Does that make 35 girly-man speed? Sorry could not help myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted November 4, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 4, 2011 Skiing 35mph may help someone finely run 41. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted November 4, 2011 Baller_ Share Posted November 4, 2011 Skiing 35mph may help someone finely run 41. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 And finely run it shall be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 And finely run it shall be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted November 5, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2011 I think once you qualify for masters men, based on your average you should be stuck there unless your average comes back down for a certain period of time. If I were good enough to get into Open Men or Master's Men, I would not care if I got medals or not. If you get into those divisions it proves you ski better than those who medal in the age divisions. Qualifying to be in the sport's elite division is worth more than any medal in an age division. Keep the speeds the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted November 5, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2011 I think once you qualify for masters men, based on your average you should be stuck there unless your average comes back down for a certain period of time. If I were good enough to get into Open Men or Master's Men, I would not care if I got medals or not. If you get into those divisions it proves you ski better than those who medal in the age divisions. Qualifying to be in the sport's elite division is worth more than any medal in an age division. Keep the speeds the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Boody Posted November 5, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2011 I certainly agree with doing it for a year to collect data and further evaluate this, I can see no harm in that at all. As far as being required to stay in MM, it is the right thing to do, even tho it would negatively effect me. I am at the very bottom of MM so it would be very difficult for me to win a Regional or National event. But I have always been frustrated with the great MM skiers that go down to their age division just get a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Boody Posted November 5, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2011 I certainly agree with doing it for a year to collect data and further evaluate this, I can see no harm in that at all. As far as being required to stay in MM, it is the right thing to do, even tho it would negatively effect me. I am at the very bottom of MM so it would be very difficult for me to win a Regional or National event. But I have always been frustrated with the great MM skiers that go down to their age division just get a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 5, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2011 GAJOOO4, great post. My goal is to get in there one day (to the elite level...whatever we tend to call it), and if I get my arse handed to me by even more elite skiers...so be it. Happy and proud to be part of that group if it ever happens. It may make sense to allow the rankings to be all inclusive, though. In that sense a M3 skier could win a national title in M3, the MM's duke it out...but in terms of the M3 national rankings may make sense to have the elite skiers up front in their age divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 5, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 5, 2011 GAJOOO4, great post. My goal is to get in there one day (to the elite level...whatever we tend to call it), and if I get my arse handed to me by even more elite skiers...so be it. Happy and proud to be part of that group if it ever happens. It may make sense to allow the rankings to be all inclusive, though. In that sense a M3 skier could win a national title in M3, the MM's duke it out...but in terms of the M3 national rankings may make sense to have the elite skiers up front in their age divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted November 5, 2011 Supporting Member Share Posted November 5, 2011 @thager Word Police for the win!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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