How would you judge this?

[clemsondave]

Hey fellow judges, let me know how you would rule on this one.

 

Below is a picture of a 3 yr old trick skier. She qualified for Regional's. Placed in the top 5 in the Regional tournament to qualify for the Nationals. Nothing was said at the local or Regional level.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/clemsondave/Other/cameronpics.jpg

 

Here are the pertinent rules:

 

8.03 Skis

(a) Maximum ski width shall not exceed 30% of the length.

(b) Any type of fixed foot binding may be used.

© Any type of fixed fins may be used.

(d) No other devices are permitted, except that devices affixed to the ski intended to control or adjust the skiing characteristics of the ski are allowed as long as they are fixed, in that they do not move or change during actual skiing.

(e) With all bindings, fins, etc. installed, the ski must float.

(f) Skis in the Tricks event shall not have fins. Trick skis with molded rails/groove less than 1/4" are acceptable.

 

 

So, my questions... How many ski's do you see above? Do you see that any of the rules were violated?

 

I mean no disrespect to the governing bodies, but I do disagree with their findings. I'm curious to see what ya'll think. This is a long story which includes, in my mind, many problems. However, I'd like to see what you think about the main point of dispute.

 

[animal]

The problem I see is that by attaching the two skis together, they are no longer individual skis but one. From the picture it would appear that the connection between the two is fairly rigid. Without measuring, it would appear that they would violate the maximum width limitation under the rule.

[animal]

The problem I see is that by attaching the two skis together, they are no longer individual skis but one. From the picture it would appear that the connection between the two is fairly rigid. Without measuring, it would appear that they would violate the maximum width limitation under the rule.

[Chuck_Dickey]

I see one ski that is outside the rules since they appear to be securely and rigidly connected.

[Chuck_Dickey]

I see one ski that is outside the rules since they appear to be securely and rigidly connected.

[eleeski]

In my judgement, the Wide track was a crappy ski.

 

Stick a 5' long foam noodle on top of the cross bars - that should make the ski technically legal.

 

Eric

[eleeski]

In my judgement, the Wide track was a crappy ski.

 

Stick a 5' long foam noodle on top of the cross bars - that should make the ski technically legal.

 

Eric

[clemsondave]

Remember, you have only the rules stated in the rule book to go by. I see nothing about attaching two skis together.

[clemsondave]

Remember, you have only the rules stated in the rule book to go by. I see nothing about attaching two skis together.

[animal]

Problem is, by rigidly attaching the skis together, they are no longer two skis they become one unit.

[animal]

Problem is, by rigidly attaching the skis together, they are no longer two skis they become one unit.

[Wish]

She should get exta points for just having to ride that rig and make it work. That has to weigh more than her!!!

[Wish]

She should get exta points for just having to ride that rig and make it work. That has to weigh more than her!!!

[Skihack]

Very impressive skiing by the little girl. Hope she sticks with it. Eventually, she will be tricking on one ski and won't have to worry with the rigid connections:)

[Skihack]

Very impressive skiing by the little girl. Hope she sticks with it. Eventually, she will be tricking on one ski and won't have to worry with the rigid connections:)

[9400]

I see no problem at all, everything looks completely legal in my opinion..... I think you have to be trying to find something wrong to find that in violation.

[9400]

I see no problem at all, everything looks completely legal in my opinion..... I think you have to be trying to find something wrong to find that in violation.

[Than_Bogan]

Is there a rule that explicitly defines what constitutes a single ski? This picture proves it probably isn't easy to come up with a definition of ski count.

 

Barring a clear definition, I'd kick this back to "skier receives benefit of the doubt." As this could be interpreted as either 2 or 1, and 2 would make it legal, I'd allow it.

[ral]

IWWF

 

10.03: Skis

 

 

c) Devices affixed to the ski intended to control or adjust the skiing characteristics of the ski are

allowed as long as they are fixed in that they do not move or change during actual skiing.

d) No other devices are permitted.

 

If there is a rigid and fixed connection, I would read it as authorized in c). Legal to me.

[animal]

If the claim is that they are two skis, try picking up one of them. The underlying problem is the potential abuse. For example, the old classic disk was a very easy device to get up on an do basic surface turn tricks, but it violates the dimension rule. I don't think you can get around the rule by cutting it in half to have two 'skis' and then reattach them together as was done here.

 

Don't get me wrong, I feel horrible for the little girl who was obviously having a great time skiing. But as I read the original post, this was done at an R tournament at Regionals and Nationals.

[Than_Bogan]

Animal wrote: "If the claim is that they are two skis, try picking up one of them."'

 

While that is a perfectly valid way to define ski count, it is not the only way. I feel confident that if I polled a random selection of non-skiers and said "how many skis are in this picture," nearly all of them would say 2. Humans don't typically lose count of things just because they are attached.

 

So unless the rulebook makes it clear that the pictured setup is 1 ski (which it might, but I haven't seen that yet), I think we have to interpret the gray area in a manner that favors the skier.

[Chef23]

I was at the Regionals she skied in and she placed in the top 5 at Regionals because there were only 3 skiers. She was having fun and I don't think any of the officials gave it too much thought. That said I am not sure that she should have been able to compete at Nationals on that rig as I do think it violates the spirit of the rule.

 

At the end of the day I wouldn't complain about it because it is always great to have a new skier excited about competing.

[Horton]

The kid is cute but the skis function as one. They are LOCKED together.

If they did not violate the width rule they might be a legal single ski.

@animal makes a good point about the disk.

 

Regionals is a Class ELR? what ever not a class C. Is too bad that someone did not stand up there before this got to the National stage.

[Jody_Seal]

The biggest problem is they let her ski with the apparatus and scored her and posted the score!

If you read the rules it stats that a score can not be contested 30 min after the score has been posted.

This rule applies to the skier as well as the tournament officials. Now if the scorer catches a wrong score in their overview later this can be amended, however in this instance with the little girl the chain of officials on the lake should have stopped her before she even hit the water. Give her the score and get on with it!

She is a cute kid we need more like her in our sport!

 

Jody Seal, SR 3ev judge/SR 3ev driver

[rfa]

I am not a lawyer...ski judge...much less a trick skier...hence, not well qualified to comment. However, based only on the info presented above this seems reasonably simple: it should be legal as long as the tricks are credited based on 2-ski trick values.

 

1) It cannot be not a single ski because it violates the the aspect ratio rule; it should be considered 2 skis since (from the rules posted above), nothing excludes two skis from being attached as per the photo.

 

 

 

[Mateo_Vargas]

We need to look at the big picture here. If the state finds out this was allowed then they will begin to charge double registration fees for catamarans and pontoon boats.

 

1.) 30 percent rule violation

2.) Anything with duct tape is a possible safety concern

[Than_Bogan]

So I decided to stop hypothesizing about a poll and actually conduct one right here at my office. I used email to avoid any tone that could suggest my own opinion, and I tried hard to choose neutral words for the question. I also made sure that respondents did not see each other's responses. So far 65% (I'm updating this number occasionally) of respondents have said "2," including one who said "How could anyone answer anything other than 2?"

 

And even if it were 40/60 instead of 60/40, I think that would show PLENTY of uncertainty, and I think it's clear in all the rules that uncertainty is decided in favor of the skier.

 

Now, if we're saying that we should MAKE this illegal, then I have no opinion on that. I don't know a damn thing about trick skiing and I'm not planning to.

 

But that's a completely different question. I think it's pretty clearly legal until either the rules are amended or somebody shows me a rule that make it obvious that this *must* be considered a single ski.

[Chef23]

I just went and looked on-line and I don't see a score posted for her at Nationals. It looks like they were skiing out of region at the Eastern Regions.

[Horton]

@rfa so if I build a huge (wide) single trick ski, cut in half and then bolt the halves back together - is it one ski or two?

 

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Is each one actually a ski? I.e. is there a binding on each and could each be skied separated? I think a person can typically make an easy distinction between two actual skis that were connected and two half-skis that were bonded into one.

 

IF this becomes a serious problem, then we'll need to make explicit rules about it. But since what you'd end up with would be a Piece Du Crap, I don't see a lot of cause to fret -- yet.

[clemsondave]

Her score was posted for 17 hours. It was then removed. Another point of the protest. They were told it was posted in error. However, the rule book clearly states that it cannot be changed after 2 hours.

 

7.06 Corrected Scoring Errors (Also see Interpretations)

A correction of an error in the computation of scores shall not be considered a protest. Such correction shall be made upon the approval of the Chief Judge and the Chief Scorer, if requested within two hours after the results of the event are posted and the judges’ scoring forms are available for inspection.

 

I see what some people are saying. However, there is nothing in the rule book about attaching two skis together. If they want to put something in there, fine. It still should not effect this skier. I have yet to see any current rule she violated.

 

Not that it matters, but she came in last place. So, no one else would have been effected.

[elr]

Her scores appear to be for two skis. At Nationals she was said to be the youngest competitor ever, could be unfair to a child skiing at Nationals at a day or two older but without the "apparatus". Don't know how she qualified for Regionals with a Level 3 ranking average.

[clemsondave]

@elr, if you look up the ranking, she is Level 6. That's the requirement for Eastern Regionals.

 

If she broke the rules, then I agree it would be unfair. However, the contention is that no rules were broken. So, as they are written, someone else could ride the same setup.

[Mateo_Vargas]

Isn't there already a show about this on TV? Toddlers and Trick Skis.

[rfa]

regarding the huge (wide) ski cut in half, if the huge (wide) is over the 30% aspect ratio rule then it is an "illegal" single ski; so unless or until there is a rule addressing two skis being connected, i don't see the problem being two skis

 

I assume that the scores for this (beautiful) little girl were based on two skis (which I understand are about half the points of single ski tricks); as long as they were it all seems good to me.

[elr]

@clemsondave Probably mistaken identity on my part - I looked up a Western Region skier who skied in 2010 Nationals under similar circustances with what looked to be the same type of setup.

[ntx]

I saw this set up at nationals and scratched my head and said "what the heck"

If the level 6 ranking was achieved with this contraption, is it really a level 6? Never should have been allowed at regionals and for sure not at nats.

 

Just my .02 Not worth much

[ntx]

It also looked like they were attached with something on the bottom as well as the top. I also remember the 2010 incident. I wonder if that was the inspiration for this rig. I think in 2010 they were at least just tied together and not solid fixed.

[Mateo_Vargas]

If that is 2 skis them I'm going to start working on my 2 ski toe tricks.

[clemsondave]

Below is a video of the girl from last year. Clearly her ski's are held together with two fixed bars. Her score was deemed valid.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/3yearoldwaterskiier-100304444.html

 

There is nothing on the bottom of this year's girl's ski's.

 

I appreciate everyone's opinions!

[Chef23]

@elr she finished 3rd at Regionals which I believed qualified her for Nationals.

[ral]

Anyone can explain to me why the attaching device does not comply with

 

c) Devices affixed to the ski intended to control or adjust the skiing characteristics of the ski are

allowed as long as they are fixed in that they do not move or change during actual skiing.

[elr]

@chef23 - how did she get to ski in Regionals (2010 girl was level 4 @ the end of the ski year and had a lower average before Regionals)?

 

@ral "ski" is singular

[Horton]

@clemsondave It is my understanding that last year's thing was against the rules also. Unfortunately it slipped through.

 

Just because I get away with running a red light once does not mean it is now legal. Worse, I see you run a red light and then I am pissed when I get a ticket for the same thing.

 

This whole thing should spark conversation about the rules and how they are enforced as well as how we treat new and young skiers. For now the rules are pretty clear - we just to not read them the same way.

[ntx]

I think that the rule concerning devices affixed to the ski, was in response to a couple of devices. The HO "power sticks" that went in front, and behind the bindings, and were said to be able to change the stiffness of the ski. The other was a wing that was adjustable with the turn of a knob mounted above the fin box. Both could be adjusted between passes.

 

Where was Kimberly this year? I hope she did not become a one year wonder or get burned out by the age of four.

 

Dave, was Kimberly's story what inspired you this year?

[clemsondave]

ntx, this is not my daughter. Just a friend. I was the chief judge at the local tournament and my interpretation was that is was ok.

 

I think it goes back to what I saw in another thread about discouraging young skiers. This is not a clear cut case either way. I can see both sides. Pretty sure there were some other issues around this situation that were not so clear either. I would hate to be in the position to make this call, but I'm pretty sure I would give the benefit of the doubt to the young skier (in fact, I did). I do not condone 'bending' the rules, but if there is no clear interpretation then I would err on the side of the skier. This is not ignoring a missed gate, running over a buoy or even running a red light ;-) Those things are clearly covered by rules.

 

At 3yrs old, she probably has no concept of all of this. However, there will be a point in time where she looks back or is reminded of what happened. Wouldn't it be better for her to have fond memories and continue the tradition?

[6balls]

It looks like the rule allows for devices affixed to THE SKI, not devices connecting THE SKIS. Regardless, that kid rocks.

[ral]

If it is not forbidden, it is allowed. I could not find any mention in the rulebook about not allowing the connection between two skis. It is not a single ski, if the device can be removed (I assume it can), it does not move during actual skiing, it does control or adjust the skiing characteristic of the ski (it makes the ski move with the other ski). I think at least it is doubtful, so the skier should have the right to use it.

 

Not saying it should be legal, I believe the situation was not considered. The AWSA/IWWF should have an explicit position on this in the next rulebook.

[Skihack]

I am thinking she got into Regionals on a State Championship placement. Is it correct that if you win your State Championship in a certain event, you are then qualified for the Regionals in that event? Very impressive little girl skiing at that age. She is definitely fearless.

[Than_Bogan]

@ral My thoughts exactly.