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PerfectPass ZO Update Final Testing and Evaluation - Shortline Lake, Elk Grove, CA


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Most of you probably saw the July 28, 2011 press release:

 

PerfectPass ZO Update – Significant progress has been made over the last sixty days on the software / hardware Upgrade for Star Gazer designed to emulate the pull characteristics of the ZO System in Slalom Mode. At this point we believe production in very limited numbers will commence in October, after final testing & evaluation in California tentatively scheduled for early September. No pricing has been set, but it is expected to be priced under $500. A further update will be released in September.

 

The California testing and evaluation began today, September 19, 2011 at beautiful Shortline Lake with: AWSA Towboat Committee Co-chairman Will Bush (#3 ranked Mens 6 skier), Eric Horton from Perfect Pass, Masters Men #1 Ranked Greg Badal, Professional Skier Terry Winter, #3 Ranked Mens 7 Skier Bob Hardeman, Professional Skier Brian Detrick and Former National Champion Paul Crawford. I invited myself and Will was nice enough to allow me to attend.

 

http://ballofspray.static.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/06/7376fa4aba1e31508acb58d0bd0d1b.jpg

 

Except for me, all of the skiers that attended, ski predominantly behind Zero Off. They are highly qualified to provide feedback as to whether the PerfectPass ZO Update really feels/skis like ZO. I practice behind PP Classic and ski tournaments behind ZO.

 

The PerfectPass ZO Update is a small black box (at this point) that plugs into your StarGazer unit with a new chip. It gives you the same A,B,C, 1,2,3 options as ZO. There are other adjustments you can make to fine tune the particular boat. When it is available for purchase, there may be different packages available depending on what your update requires. To update my boat will require StarGazer, multi-line display and the ZO Update.

 

The first boat was a newer Mastercraft drive by wire boat equipped with ZO and PP. The feedback was really positive. Everyone felt that the PerfectPass with ZO Update felt like ZO. Eric Horton was taking notes and making adjustments based on feedback from the skiers, drivers and his own observations. My ride behind this boat was PP C2, 55K, 28 off. We dropped and came back at ZO C2, 55K, 28 off. We repeated the same procedure at 32 off and then 35 off. This gave a direct comparison.

 

http://ballofspray.static.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/94/a12b7356ff35b32a755f2be7acf527.jpg

 

The second boat was a 2001 SN196 with the PP servo system (non drive-by-wire). I thought this boat felt really close to my tournament rides behind ZO.

 

http://ballofspray.static.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/e6/8929d0725152601a930d1a11116a70.jpg

 

The final boat of the day 1 testing was a newer Malibu Response LXI. I did not ski behind this boat but those who did gave positive feedback.

 

http://ballofspray.static.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/32/977de34f03b6a77afc0f42b5b4a36f.jpg

 

Please excuse the poor grammar and lack of proof reading. I was rushed to press by the Ball of Hair.

 

Here is a slideshow of the photos:

 

 

Here is some video with audio of the boat engine:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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/foreheadslap! I just got a clue what eyepeeler and Roger are talking about! If ZO actually comes up with a good PP emulator, then you can just keep practicing on PP and select that setting when you go to tournaments. That _is_ free.

 

We'll see if any of that comes to fruition, of course.

 

But personally, I like ZO slightly better overall, and I often practice with it on my ski partner's boat, so I'd seriously consider getting this upgrade if it's really a lot like ZO.

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Well, even so it's not a bad deal if I could do a ZO emulator on a '00 SN 196 by adding SG and the emulator...far, far cheaper than a boat upgrade...if you can call it a boat upgrade at all. The 196 throws a hell of a wake, has great power and tracking...just don't have the latest speed control. My guess is I'm far from alone.

I suppose the risk is a guy pops for the ZO emulator and in a few years the speed control system at tourneys (new boats) changes again. It is in the best interest of the manufacturers to have planned obsolescence. Given hulls stick around for a mighty long time, there has to be some reason to buy new year after year. It surely isn't for a great shortline wake as that has been there across the big three for a decade or better.

Having said that, thanks to all skiers and developers who are working on this project...in the short term it at least brings some opportunity to train behind the existing tourney system for those who can't afford a new boat.

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Well, even so it's not a bad deal if I could do a ZO emulator on a '00 SN 196 by adding SG and the emulator...far, far cheaper than a boat upgrade...if you can call it a boat upgrade at all. The 196 throws a hell of a wake, has great power and tracking...just don't have the latest speed control. My guess is I'm far from alone.

I suppose the risk is a guy pops for the ZO emulator and in a few years the speed control system at tourneys (new boats) changes again. It is in the best interest of the manufacturers to have planned obsolescence. Given hulls stick around for a mighty long time, there has to be some reason to buy new year after year. It surely isn't for a great shortline wake as that has been there across the big three for a decade or better.

Having said that, thanks to all skiers and developers who are working on this project...in the short term it at least brings some opportunity to train behind the existing tourney system for those who can't afford a new boat.

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Dave,

Any comment on the gate feel? Scoke and Dawg were here this past weekend skiing behind our 2001 196 with PP classic. One of the main things noticed was on the feel of the gate and the boat "running" in your glide vs ZO. Did the new system mimic this area well?

 

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Dave,

Any comment on the gate feel? Scoke and Dawg were here this past weekend skiing behind our 2001 196 with PP classic. One of the main things noticed was on the feel of the gate and the boat "running" in your glide vs ZO. Did the new system mimic this area well?

 

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They are still tweaking it a little. It felt really close on the 2001 SN 196 servo boat. It is good. The gate felt just like ZO. It does not come in hot and let you pull it down. If you pull, it gases just like ZO.

On the DBW boat, the PP felt similar but a little stronger/more difficult but when I told Eric and Greg that, they made an adjustment that made it feel the same. If you don't drive it correctly, it will run away like StarGazer. You need to not engage it around the island and then smoothly pull the skier up to speed and not floor it like ZO.

Terry, Greg, Will, Paul, Eric, Brian and Bob ski behind ZO all the time. They can give you a better perspective. I skied PP Classic today and it felt easier and different. They won't release it until it is correct.

They are shooting for October limited production.

I will buy it as soon as they will sell me one. I need the works: display, StarGazer and ZO Update.

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They are still tweaking it a little. It felt really close on the 2001 SN 196 servo boat. It is good. The gate felt just like ZO. It does not come in hot and let you pull it down. If you pull, it gases just like ZO.

On the DBW boat, the PP felt similar but a little stronger/more difficult but when I told Eric and Greg that, they made an adjustment that made it feel the same. If you don't drive it correctly, it will run away like StarGazer. You need to not engage it around the island and then smoothly pull the skier up to speed and not floor it like ZO.

Terry, Greg, Will, Paul, Eric, Brian and Bob ski behind ZO all the time. They can give you a better perspective. I skied PP Classic today and it felt easier and different. They won't release it until it is correct.

They are shooting for October limited production.

I will buy it as soon as they will sell me one. I need the works: display, StarGazer and ZO Update.

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Here is my one concern with this system, that SG emulator will be slower to respond than ZO, much slower, no matter what the setting.

 

I drive both SG and ZO every weekend, and it seems that SG is slow to react to changes, which I think is more mechanical that a software issue. For example, if the skier stops skiing at 5 ball, I will get a .88. The overall feel of ZO is instantaneous, where SG can take much longer to compensate and have those out of whack segments, where the boat "yo-yos" thru the course, or runs away after 3 ball.

 

I hope I am wrong because I really want this ZO emulator to work. But I have always thought its just too slow.

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Here is my one concern with this system, that SG emulator will be slower to respond than ZO, much slower, no matter what the setting.

 

I drive both SG and ZO every weekend, and it seems that SG is slow to react to changes, which I think is more mechanical that a software issue. For example, if the skier stops skiing at 5 ball, I will get a .88. The overall feel of ZO is instantaneous, where SG can take much longer to compensate and have those out of whack segments, where the boat "yo-yos" thru the course, or runs away after 3 ball.

 

I hope I am wrong because I really want this ZO emulator to work. But I have always thought its just too slow.

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I upgraded from PP Classic to Stargazer in the past few weeks. Before upgrading I called PP to check on the ZO emulation, which they assured me would be a simple code upgrade for existing Stargazer customers when available. I can certainly tell a difference between SG and PPC, mainly in that if throttle position isn't just right, you will get a fast first segment while it levels itself out. If throttle position prior to the 55's is perfect, it pulls a great pass. I'm ready for the ZO emulator, and in theory this seems to be the perfect compromise. Boody makes a good point though, my concern is that mechanically it may not be able to keep up. If that's holds true, the ZO emulation of SG sounds like the way to go. Either way, that suggests all PPC users should be considering the upgrade to SG
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I upgraded from PP Classic to Stargazer in the past few weeks. Before upgrading I called PP to check on the ZO emulation, which they assured me would be a simple code upgrade for existing Stargazer customers when available. I can certainly tell a difference between SG and PPC, mainly in that if throttle position isn't just right, you will get a fast first segment while it levels itself out. If throttle position prior to the 55's is perfect, it pulls a great pass. I'm ready for the ZO emulator, and in theory this seems to be the perfect compromise. Boody makes a good point though, my concern is that mechanically it may not be able to keep up. If that's holds true, the ZO emulation of SG sounds like the way to go. Either way, that suggests all PPC users should be considering the upgrade to SG
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My 2005 197 is DBW. With SG it never runs hot going in even if you slammed the throttle. The boat cuts off when it hits the pick up point and stays there. I have driven SG on a throttle cable boat and in that case you definitely have to ease into the throttle or you will run a very hot first half, followed by a very slow second. In my DBW boat the SG picks up in the same way as ZO does in other boats I drive -- perfect every time, regardless of how the driver throttles up. I suspect that the new emulator may behave differently depending on DBW or throttle cable as well.
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My 2005 197 is DBW. With SG it never runs hot going in even if you slammed the throttle. The boat cuts off when it hits the pick up point and stays there. I have driven SG on a throttle cable boat and in that case you definitely have to ease into the throttle or you will run a very hot first half, followed by a very slow second. In my DBW boat the SG picks up in the same way as ZO does in other boats I drive -- perfect every time, regardless of how the driver throttles up. I suspect that the new emulator may behave differently depending on DBW or throttle cable as well.
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I have a 94 Malibu with PP Classic and a servo. I have had trouble in tournaments behind ZO, as there is a huge difference. I recently tried using the trick mode on PP classic and had good luck. Instead of keeping a steady RPM like slalom mode, it works off the paddle wheel to keep a steady speed like ZO. If the paddle wheel is calibrated, it does a good job of holding the speed through the course. The engine will increase and decrease RPMs as the skier pulls through the course, keeping the speed close to constant. There is a delay on the pull, but I think it is similar to the ZO A 3 setting. Just a thought for others to try. You have to use a hand timer to check times, as it wont pick up magnets through the course.
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I have a 94 Malibu with PP Classic and a servo. I have had trouble in tournaments behind ZO, as there is a huge difference. I recently tried using the trick mode on PP classic and had good luck. Instead of keeping a steady RPM like slalom mode, it works off the paddle wheel to keep a steady speed like ZO. If the paddle wheel is calibrated, it does a good job of holding the speed through the course. The engine will increase and decrease RPMs as the skier pulls through the course, keeping the speed close to constant. There is a delay on the pull, but I think it is similar to the ZO A 3 setting. Just a thought for others to try. You have to use a hand timer to check times, as it wont pick up magnets through the course.
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I have recently updated my PP (2002 Malibu) to Stargazer (because my PP computer died) and you need to be very careful getting up to speed or it will run hot. My guess is that will be an issue with the ZO upgrade as well. My understanding is that I can tune SG I just haven't figured out how to keep it from overshooting the speed yet. We have a short setup on one end so frequently the boat is still coming up to speed at the 55s if I want the speed to be right when entering the course.
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I have recently updated my PP (2002 Malibu) to Stargazer (because my PP computer died) and you need to be very careful getting up to speed or it will run hot. My guess is that will be an issue with the ZO upgrade as well. My understanding is that I can tune SG I just haven't figured out how to keep it from overshooting the speed yet. We have a short setup on one end so frequently the boat is still coming up to speed at the 55s if I want the speed to be right when entering the course.
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I have SG in my 03 SN. Same issue with the gate bieng fast. Only thing I've done to help the situation is to lower your crew weight to 100 or 0. Plus if you hit the on/off and ^ together, you can tweak gate/ 1-3 ball. I have the gate all the way down, and 18- 22 is really close allthe way through. I get .75- .76 gate times w/ that set-up... Oh, I forgot that when I added my switch, the times really evened out??? I thought w/SG the swich wasn't activated but the display shows its working? Weird, but it's a great pull now, and really prefer it now over classic.
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I have SG in my 03 SN. Same issue with the gate bieng fast. Only thing I've done to help the situation is to lower your crew weight to 100 or 0. Plus if you hit the on/off and ^ together, you can tweak gate/ 1-3 ball. I have the gate all the way down, and 18- 22 is really close allthe way through. I get .75- .76 gate times w/ that set-up... Oh, I forgot that when I added my switch, the times really evened out??? I thought w/SG the swich wasn't activated but the display shows its working? Weird, but it's a great pull now, and really prefer it now over classic.
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For all you folks having issues with SG running away at 3 ball, slow first segment/hot 2nd segment, surging up and down in the course, hot comming in, just basically acting weird etc I think I've discovered the fix (or at least a potential fix anyway).

 

A little background. When I first added SG to my '05 RLXI (cable throttle setup) it was near perfect with only a little tweaking required to dial it in using background settings I got either here or from the Malibu Crew forum (switching the tach setting to "Inverted" was one parameter that had to be adjusted, aparently common on Malibu's; another was dropping all the background settings significantly below what PP suggests). For some unknown reason about mid this season the damn thing freaked out and did a total global reset to factory settings and no matter what I did to it I couldn't get it back like it was before. Been the past 2 months screwing with it, cussing it, fighting with it trying to get it right. Reset it to the same numbers I had before but nothing seemed to work. About every other pass it was just weird.

 

The issue was that even throttling up easy so as not to overshoot the baseline it wouldn't engage until about 1000 - 1200 rpm above the baseline. At that point it was running hot, then slow way down to compensate (overcompensate actually), come into the gate slow (longer setups) or hot (shorter setups), then surge way up or down depending, trying to make the times come out right. Might get a 16.95 end time but ball to ball was a rodeo ride. Tried all kind of things with crew weight settings etc, nothing helped.

 

I finally realized that before the freakout/reset when it was working so right, that it engaged at a much lower rpm than it was now doing (34.2 in my boat is about 3360 rpm, it was above 3500 before it would lock in). I went into the baseline settings and dropped the baseline to around 3200 and boom, right back to near perfect pulls/near perfect times like before. Now engaging at around 3300 or so and settles right in (as long as you don't over throttle anyway). Try dropping your baseline a couple hundred rpm's to get the SG to engage at a lower rpm and it may fix your issues. It did on my boat anyway.

 

Ed

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For all you folks having issues with SG running away at 3 ball, slow first segment/hot 2nd segment, surging up and down in the course, hot comming in, just basically acting weird etc I think I've discovered the fix (or at least a potential fix anyway).

 

A little background. When I first added SG to my '05 RLXI (cable throttle setup) it was near perfect with only a little tweaking required to dial it in using background settings I got either here or from the Malibu Crew forum (switching the tach setting to "Inverted" was one parameter that had to be adjusted, aparently common on Malibu's; another was dropping all the background settings significantly below what PP suggests). For some unknown reason about mid this season the damn thing freaked out and did a total global reset to factory settings and no matter what I did to it I couldn't get it back like it was before. Been the past 2 months screwing with it, cussing it, fighting with it trying to get it right. Reset it to the same numbers I had before but nothing seemed to work. About every other pass it was just weird.

 

The issue was that even throttling up easy so as not to overshoot the baseline it wouldn't engage until about 1000 - 1200 rpm above the baseline. At that point it was running hot, then slow way down to compensate (overcompensate actually), come into the gate slow (longer setups) or hot (shorter setups), then surge way up or down depending, trying to make the times come out right. Might get a 16.95 end time but ball to ball was a rodeo ride. Tried all kind of things with crew weight settings etc, nothing helped.

 

I finally realized that before the freakout/reset when it was working so right, that it engaged at a much lower rpm than it was now doing (34.2 in my boat is about 3360 rpm, it was above 3500 before it would lock in). I went into the baseline settings and dropped the baseline to around 3200 and boom, right back to near perfect pulls/near perfect times like before. Now engaging at around 3300 or so and settles right in (as long as you don't over throttle anyway). Try dropping your baseline a couple hundred rpm's to get the SG to engage at a lower rpm and it may fix your issues. It did on my boat anyway.

 

Ed

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Ed, you make a good point on the baselines. When I set my baselines I was working through a 15mph crosswind. I reset the baselines tonight with no wind, and they came up a bit shorter on the RPM. I'll report back after I ski tomorrow to see if this helps my fast first segment scenario. For those that are contrasting this with their boats, I am in a 2003 TT197 with the LQ-9 in inverted mode on SG. More shortly -6.
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Ed, you make a good point on the baselines. When I set my baselines I was working through a 15mph crosswind. I reset the baselines tonight with no wind, and they came up a bit shorter on the RPM. I'll report back after I ski tomorrow to see if this helps my fast first segment scenario. For those that are contrasting this with their boats, I am in a 2003 TT197 with the LQ-9 in inverted mode on SG. More shortly -6.
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There are no delay issues with the servo. It reacts very quickly. The acceleromaters (I am guessing) in the zo update give instant reaction to load.

I am not sure on the year of the Malibu. Maybe someone can ID it from the photos.

 

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There are no delay issues with the servo. It reacts very quickly. The acceleromaters (I am guessing) in the zo update give instant reaction to load.

I am not sure on the year of the Malibu. Maybe someone can ID it from the photos.

 

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