Knee bend

[Than_Bogan]

Just making a place to discuss how we teach knee bend (or lack thereof) and how it fits into the big picture of slalom form.

 

(This began on a different thread with Horton claiming that he doesn't teach knee bend anymore. So let's get to the bottom of this!)

 

GO!

[scoke]

 

edit to my post: yes bend your knees.

[ral]

Horton does not teach knee bend but he bends his knees. Maybe he is trying to kill the competition.

[jimbrake]

"Bend ze knees. Five dollars please."

 

Here are a few others I use:

 

"Bend your knees, but not your waist."

"Put your knee cap over your toes."

"Bend your g__ d___ knees."

[Horton]

When "most" skiers bend their knees their hips go back. The easiest way to be stacked is with a mostly straight back leg. The straighter my legs the wider I get.

 

Knees forward is what we all tried to do back in the day. Good luck with that.

[Wish]

I asked Lucky Lowe about this at a boat show a decade ago. He said there's no need to bend them. I think he had his replaced. Or was that hips!

[Marco]

I guess Marcus didn't get the memo.../vanilla2/uploads/FileUpload/2/1042.gif

[Steven_Haines]

I was skiing with friends the other day and they mentioned that I was standing real tall in the turn. I intentionally try to do that. It feels (to me) that the ski initiates easier because I'm able to get my weight on my front foot better and it also helps me counter with my hips better. This seems to help the ski finish more complete. I feel if I try to bend my knees to much, my backside starts to fall back. While studying photos of top skiers, I noticed this trend in a number of pros.

[Wish]

I think the knee bend question is related to the turn and finish of the turn. I've never seen any one straight leg through the wakes. And come out alive.

[Horton]

@marco Marcus is talented. Very talented. Some skiers can drive forward. I think if you showed MB that exact photo he would tell you he was back.

 

Bruce Butterfield was crazy to watch last time I watched him from the boat. Massive forward bend everywhere. A few skiers do this very well. I think Zap! might ski that way.... more maybe he skis drunk.... I forget.

 

We all bend our knees some. I find that most skiers have more back knee bend than front knee and that means center of mass back.

 

Ask any of the guys I ski with at SkiWest Lake 3 or at Gurnett's, what I tell them most of the time.... and then ask if scores are up for almost everyone. It is almost always some version of stand up / get stacked.

 

@Wish I am talking about at the wakes. I try to drive froward at the ball but under load I want to get my body in line as much as I can.

[Horton]

http://www.ballofspray.com/images/stories/IMG_1563.JPGIf I straightened my back leg here I would move my mass forward and get more ski in the water. My stack would be better.

[Horton]

that photo makes my arms look huge! Dirt is a good photographer

[Marco]

I liken knee bend in water skiing to knee bend in mogul skiing. As you are completing the turn, the knees soften (bend) to help absorb the excessive load caused by the directional change. As the ski loads to its max, you use the "rebound' to get light and change edges, pushing the ski out in front (straitening the legs) in preparation for the next turn.

 

Admittedly, if I was able to carry more speed throught he turn, I would need less knee bend at the finish, as there would be less load to absorb. I may be totally off base here, but that is how it feels to me. I hope to be skiing with Wim next week, and if that works out, I'll ask him his opinion.

[Horton]

@Marco Lets start over. @Than Bogan started all this when talking about entry level skiing. If you are running the blue loop or beyond and you want to think about it your way, I am all for it. For the green loop or longer, I think that is the wrong way to go.

[Chef23]

I think I know the skier Than is trying to help and the issue is that he has his front leg locked and most of his weight on his back leg. This causes the ski to wheelie out of the turns and impacts his ability to get good angle cross course.

 

I agree you don't need excessive knee bend but you need to be balanced on the ski. I have been working with the skier mentioned above and have tried hips to handle, flex your ankles, more weight on your front foot, ski proud with your back arched, squeeze your ass cheeks together and haven't been able to hit the right thought to get him balanced on the ski.

[jimbrake]

Knee bend, like most things in water skiing (or snow skiing) is a dynamic thing. You don't bend your knees just to bend them. The goal for any level skier is not to be have bent knees all the time. Greatest knee bend probably occurs through the edge change (unless you are Rachelle Matli) and the least knee bend probably occurs for most at the apex of the turn on short lines. In between there is change from one to the other. JTH - would you agree that offside pull behind the boat that your knees are probably more bent than in the same spot on your onside pull?

[tsixam]

To bend or not to bend..that is not really the question. There are a lot of different styles in waterskiing and what works for you, is right. If you can keep you center of mass in the right place by bending your knees, do it. If you do better by standing tall on your ski with more pressure on the front foot, do it. The most important thing is to stay balanced on the ski. Take a look at MB, Mike Morgan, Terry W or Lucky and some others and you will see that there are a lot of different styles that works extremely well. What they all have in common is that they have there CM in the right place. My 2 cent…

 

Tsixam

 

[Horton]

@Tsixam hit the nail

@jimbrake do NOT make fun of RM!

[slow]

Nate sure keeps his knees bent though the turn. My ski settles in a lot better with a slight knee bent.

[Than_Bogan]

Ok, I think we're all saying about the same thing. Knees must flex, but the degree of it is largely a style question. And stacking is far more important, so to whatever extent further knee bend interferes with stacking, stop it!

 

Btw, Chef, I actually was addressing somebody right here on this forum that I don't know personally. I don't recall anybody on our lake having a serious knee bend problem, although I can guess whom you are talking about.

 

This particular guy was getting launched at the wakes (according to him), and I felt (and still do) that being aware of knee bend was an important part of the solution.

[Marco]

@horton - I ski with some friends who are at longer lines/slower speeds, and when they go stiff legged coming out of the buoy, even when in decent shoulder back/hips up position, the boat pulls them up at the wake. When they soften as the rope loads, they don't give as much back to the boat. I explain that softening the knees acts like a combination shock absorber and throttle control.

 

I agree that "bend ze knees" often translates into "drop your butt" and can be detrimental to less experienced skiers, but some do benefit with the concept. I also agree that @tsixam said it best.

[Deano]

bend your ankles !! hips over the feet.

 

Deano

[Chef23]

Than, I don't think it is a knee bend issue with the person I am talking about but a weight distribution issue and I tried recommending more knee bend as a fix for the weight distribution.

[Than_Bogan]

Valid point, Chef. My focus is elsewhere, but he needs to hear lots of different perspectives on the same thing anyhow.

 

So do we all!!

[Horton]

I really want this thread to die but.... if your back leg is bent more than front leg, how do you get forward....

[Than_Bogan]

Why would you want this thread to die? Understanding how knee bend works, and how to instruct others about it, is at the core of what this forum is for!

 

I certainly agree that geometry dictates that your front knee is typically bent more than your rear knee. But I'd be hesitant to instruct someone to straighten their rear leg, because thinking about it that way seems likely to lead to *pushing* with that leg/foot and putting excess pressure on the tail of the ski -- pretty much the opposite of the intention.

 

I prefer either Karina/Tsixam's "balanced" terminology or your own "Relaxed Position" terminology as a way to explain where you want to stand on the ski, and knee bend (or more knee "softness") is more something I'd comment on when a skier is not fluid.

[Horton]

OK do this from me.

 

Stand up. Squat into a typical beginner skier “hips back”, unstacked position. Now straighten your back leg. What happens? You cannot push your back foot through the floor so your center of mass is moved forward. If you are under load from the boat, you can not drive the tail of the ski down.

 

On the water (exiting the ball to the edge change) if you straighten your legs you will center yourself. If the power of the boat is directed equally through both feet you will be more centered then most skiers. A flat foot mindset not heels or toes, is what I believe works best. I think the reality is we are heel heavy and that is ok.

 

Many skiers think they need to be on their toes. If you can ski centered and then drive your knees forward that is great. The only skiers I know that can do this are pros or freaks.

 

Back on shore, if you were going to take a lot of weight on your shoulders, would you get on your toes or with extra knee bend? Or would you stand with “slightly” bent knees and flat feet. When I teach this to kids I call it “The Dog Food Position”. In short, if I was going to drop a 50 lb bag of dog food on each shoulder what position would you want to be in? Would you max out ankle bend? Or would you stand pretty tall and stacked?

 

[Horton]

I understand what I am saying is exactly the opposite of what coaches said 10-20-30 years ago. I disagree with 99% of what I told students in the 90s. To all those who paid good money for that instruction I am sorry.

[eleeski]

Soften your knees at the ball to keep the edge smoothly engaged.

 

Straighten your legs at the wake to maximize the leverage and angle where it matters most. The load here should be more than your knees (or arms - who bends elbows?) can resist. If you do have Marcus like strength, push at that point for more kick.

 

Straight dog food for thought.

 

Eric

[Horton]

At the ball is another thread. I am talking about Stack & Center of Mass.

[Than_Bogan]

This is very intriguing, John. I can totally see your point, but I'd still think that a lot of beginners will end up taking it the wrong way.

 

BUT it's always a good thing to have tons of ways to correct the same problem, because different individuals will relate to different ideas. I will have to play with this in my coaching and get back to you!

 

Great discussion. Thanks.

[Horton]

when I am dealing with beginners I may talk about it differently but the idea is the same. I talk lot about getting your chin as far from your feet as possible. Get tall and then lean on the rope.

 

I also talk about straightening BOTH legs more than the back one but the back one is the key

[bxroads]

I'm going to wrap my knees with duct tape next time I ski.

[Horton]

please get photos

[Wish]

And video of tape removal. No shaving prier to application.

[Horton]

I am betting the tape will come off in the fall....

[bxroads]

Seriously, from a beginner, a bent back leg and stiff front leg has been one of the hardest things to overcome.

[Horton]

And that is why we all want to see video of your knees held in place with duct tape

[ral]

What I see in many beginner skiers here is bent back leg, totally straight front leg and chin over the ski tip as result...

[Horton]

Exactly

[kfennell]

What helped me stop doing that was to set my bindings back to perfectly straight, this pretty much forced me to keep my back leg behind my front, so now I never get the straight front bent back leg sitting on the ski thing going on. No thanks to horton and his terrible headache causing advice.

[Stevie Boy]

I know somebody who skis shoulders hunched forward and straight legged, when coming out of the bouy his free hand goes over the top to the handle, but hey he gets the job done, or though everything about his skiing looks wrong, I have never seen him take a hit, skis into 38 off.

[apodawil]

I coach a couple of schools in the collegiate waterski seen. So i see alot of beginners ski, ass out way in the back sit through the wakes. I learned to never tell anyone bend their knees. If you tell someone to bend their knees they will sit down with their ass out.  But I also agree with Than Bogan you have to have your knees bent.  To get around this I always stress to them to bend their ankles. You can't bend your ankles with out bending your knees.  If you watch an other sport carefully the most used joint is the ankle.  Your ankle can push the ski away and can pull the ski back under you.  If you think about every pull through the wake as a squat i think you are stacked over your edge.  The correct way to do a squat to protect your back is bend your ankles as you go down try to keep your upper body over your feet. This also keeps your ass in.  To apply this to skiing, push away on every cut as if your squatting away from the boat.  As you bend your ankle up your ski will get suck back under your upper body making you more stack over that cutting edge. Soft ankles that move the ski back under you is the key.  Exactly what i didn't do at regionals! Cant win them all.  

Ask any snow skier whats the most important thing about their ski boots.  I would say a really stiff boot with good progressive forward flex.  To get the whole edge to grip the snow you have to get forward in the boots.  To get forward you have to bind your ankles.