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video of "perfect" form


roda
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Thanks, I found one 15 off pass @ fifteenoff.com. It is interesting how early Seth transitions from pull to pre-turn and that he is in the air when he does it. He is also turning a lot later around the ball than I would have expected.

 

Makes me think that every video is going to be a little different style and not so easy to use as a comparison to our own passes.

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I am not sure u want to mimic a pro skiing at a low level. I really think you want to watch a skier with a simple style like Parrish. Even at very shortline Parrish skis how you want to ski at any pass

 Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

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Strongly agree with Horton re watching somebody ski way below their ability.  This is not likely to be meaningful, as they are dialing back everything to avoid over-doing it.  In particular, that early, in-air edge change is a direct result of trying not to pull too hard:  I do that at -22 because I don't practice it but sometimes I need it in a tournament to set up a wind direction.  Emulating my style at -22 would be a huge mistake!  (I mean an even huger mistake than emulating it at some other line length...)

Far better to watch the best on their toughest passes and try to emulate what they are doing on your toughest passes.  Parrish for the men, Nowlan for the women.  I watch her world record set a lot.  Sick technique there:

 

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I say Parrish for everyone. KN is unreal but she does not ski like anyone else on earth. Like TW or T-Mo. Cool to watch and learn from but you are not going to ski like them.

 Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

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Roda, I don't think watching someone who is way out of one's league skiing a speed and Length waaay out of ones League is going to set the right Visual, the right Tempo or the right Rhthym... Yes, the Stacked Leveraged form is what we all need and their Patience and timing are also great.

But, Seth actually edge changes in the same place he does at every speed and/or length. He is very patient with his pull, reach, turn and Hook up. He is Not up/down, waving his arms around, bobbling his Head and shoulders. All of this, IS the result of Very Good Technique! This IS what everyone is shooting for @ all speeds and lengths. Personally, I don't want to emulate anyone who is running their Hardest pass.  I would want to See the nuts and Bolts of a very Effecient style, Technique, Speed and Length that I can relate to (and that I would want to be like) doing what I actually do. (Not what I wish I could do...)

WTS, I would LOVE to see CP and a Bunch more of the Pro's STEP UP and do what Both Seth and Marcus have already done to help Grow the Sport; Show the Worldl what it looks like to properly run Longer line and slower speeds... -That would be Awesome!!!  

THANX SETH and MARCUS!http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif

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I took the video of Seth skiing on 15off.com.  I'm curious as to why some of you think you shouldn't emulate a pro's form at that speed and line length?  I asked him to ski it b/c I don't always get what they (coaches) are trying to tell me...so I basically asked, "show me what you want me to look like.  how is it supposed to look?"  I've watched the video several hundred times (especially the ones where he's not sillouted (sp?) by the sun) just trying to break down each little piece an nuance.  Is this a mistake?
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Well, obviously there is some disagreement among experts here, but I can nevertheless attempt to explain my viewpoint.

When a skier is skiing well below his max pass, he necessarily skis it differently than someone would for whom that is a reach pass.  For example, it was mentioned that Seth changes edges right behind the boat and (therefore) in the air.  This is the "right" place for him to edge change at -15 because he knows how to pull hard enough to run -39 (iirc -- certainly at least -38).  So he can build enough speed and angle before even reaching the wakes that he better back off and start slowing down or he'll go 20 feet too wide of the ball.  As I noted above, this is also what I do when I ski -22, and in fact I often go airborne for some distance because I am edge-changing right on the wake and thus turning it into a ramp.

If someone who has a max pass of -15 intentionally changes edge that early, there's a fair chance he will ski right inside the next ball.  And running too narrow of a line would be almost assured.  The reason is that the more novice skier has not built nearly as much speed and angle before the wakes.  (This is almost necessarily true, because if he knew how to do that, then -15 wouldn't be his max pass.)

That's just one example, but I think it's a key one.

Others appear to see more value in watching a skier way below their max pass than I do.  So make your own decision!

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Wouldn't it be a correct observation for a 15off skier, when comparing themselves to Seth's skiing, that I need to imitate his same speed and momentum from the buoy to the first wake before I can think about imitating the location of his edge change?

It seems to me that just focusing on a common mistake made by 15off skiers - letting up behind the boat w/o enough momentum to edge change and carry out to the buoy - and Seth merely provides a different solution (more speed momentum) than what is commonly given to beginner level skiers (pull through the 2nd wake).

I guess what I hear you saying is that a 15off skier cannot learn from the positive example from video - i.e., this is how it's done perfectly.

Instead, I hear you saying that a 15off skier can only learn from a negative example - i.e., don't do it this way.

For me, this is far easier to translate than watching him run his 36 / -32 pass.

Thoughts?

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Always have thoughts... /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif 

 Wouldn't it be a correct observation for a 15off skier, when comparing themselves to Seth's skiing, that I need to imitate his same speed and momentum from the buoy to the first wake before I can think about imitating the location of his edge change?

Imitating Seth's speed/momentum/direction in that region would be GREAT.  And once you can do that you'll be working on -38.  In other words, that is HARD.  As a "next step" I feel that is out of reach.

It seems to me that just focusing on a common mistake made by 15off skiers - letting up behind the boat w/o enough momentum to edge change and carry out to the buoy - and Seth merely provides a different solution (more speed momentum) than what is commonly given to beginner level skiers (pull through the 2nd wake).

Here again I believe the question is which of these solution is reasonably possible for a skier at that level to employ.  Also note you'll need to "pull through the 2nd wake" (or at least feel like your are) for shorter line lengths anyhow.  So that's a good thing to be working on (as with everything here, that's IN MY OPINION).

I guess what I hear you saying is that a 15off skier cannot learn from the positive example from video - i.e., this is how it's done perfectly.

That is oversimplified.  Watching Seth Stisher brush his teeth might make you a better slalom skier!  He's that good.  But trying to emulate every aspect of his form at -15 is, in my opinion, not a valid next step.  There's that whole "walk before you run" thing here.  He's taking advantage of things that a max-at-15 skier simply can't do.

Instead, I hear you saying that a 15off skier can only learn from a negative example - i.e., don't do it this way.

Oh man, I hope I didn't say THAT anywhere.  If you have the choice of watching Seth at -15 vs. watching me at -32, take Seth.  The man knows what he's doing.  But I feel there's even more to learn from watching him at -32, regardless of what pass you are skiing now.

For me, this is far easier to translate than watching him run his 36 / -32 pass.

If that's the case, then please ignore me (I am completely serious.)  If you are getting more benefit to your skiing from watching -15 than watching -32, then keep doing it!  Just make sure you don't start pulling too short and doing a mid-air edge change.

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I'm flip flopping on this a little. I think it's difficult to say, "This is how you ski -15'." In those videos, Seth has the leverage and efficiency off the buoy of... a skier that get's to the 10.75 loop. On the other hand, I don't think it would be going down the wrong road to emulate his positioning on the ski and control of the handle off the second wakes. It would be going down the wrong road to replicate his tempo, someone skiing longer lines will not likely be efficient enough to get to the next buoy using the same tempo.

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Sorry, but I just can't resist!!!

The edge change needs to be an automatic and unconscience physical reaction to the effeciency of the Pull by the Boat. And it should hopefully Never be initiated with a conscience move or thought by the skier...(if Done properly, -like Seth is doing.) And this IS what a -15 needs to be shooting for and thus, "Walking before he runs"...

*** WARNING*** Any skier who is forcing an edge change before the Buoy is simply not pulling and then managing the Rope/Handle properly in the 1st place. A Proper edge change does not negate an outbound direction. Only poor technique accomplishes that. 

If a -15 or -22 skier cannot get the right Visual, Tempo, Rhthym, Technique, etc... from a Pro who is skiing at    -15 or -22, then How on Gods green Earth, can he get any value out of watching that same Pro ski at -32 or -38 @ 36 mph?!?! There is NO comparison in the Lengths or the tempo and technique what so ever!

All that the short line videos will produce in a Long line skier is; a skier that over compesates the Reach and Counter rotation, under compesates for the Pull and pre-turn and then over turns in the corners creating Fatal Line loads......

 

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Well, actually, I agree with most of what h2odawg79 is saying here.  However, there are a few points I totally disagree with and that's why I reach the opposite conclusion at the end.  In fact, the point that is underlined for emphasis is the one I most disagree with:

There is NO comparison in the Lengths or the tempo and technique what so ever!

Taken literally, this would make practicing longer line lengths a complete waste of time.  The opposite is true.  The best skiers repeat their (relatively) long lengths again and again to perfection, exactly because the vast majority of it does translate to the shorter line lengths.

But even taken less literally, I disagree.  The geometry of -32 is a bit different from the geometry of -15, but what you are hoping to accomplish at each point in the pattern is almost identical.  Except that when I ski -15 or -22, I'm doing it "wrong" -- I've moved what I am doing to different places in the pattern than it would be at my regular practice line lengths.

Seems we are forced to "agree to disagree" on certain points -- but hopefully all the stuff we do agree on will help these folks, and perhaps the discussion of those we don't will, too.

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It's all good and to some degree we may actually be trying to arrive @ the same conclusion!http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif

I 1st need to say that my posts are directed to Roda and others in the like who are working to perfect the -15 and -22 lengths... And yes, to the accomplished skier their are certainly some Basic comparables, some common threads. But, from the view of the 15 offer, these comparisons get Blurred or totally lost. An accomplished skier can take his/her basic foundation from -38 all the way down to -15. But, he will (as you have stated) "Apply" it differently and at different times. Therefore, once again, it does Not compare in the eye's of a 15 offer trying to learn what to apply and when.... Teach a 15 offer with the technique and charactoristics of a well run 15 off pass. Not a well run 38 off pass. You could also never teach a 38 offer to run -38 by only studying a well run 15 off pass. (rhythm, timing, tempo...)

re: "The best skiers repeat their (relatively) long lengths again and again to perfection, exactly because the vast majority of it does translate to the shorter line lengths".

Yes, they are looking for repeatability. And a "Groove". This is also exactly why it is So important, crucial and imparative even! for the 15 offer to witness and Study the "Groove" of 15 off done properly.  Not the herky, jerky, hack run that they may already be battling. And the -32 or -38 just does not afford them the opportunity to do anything but;

#1. Dream about "Some day"...

#2. learn to accidently under pull and over reach...

#3. practice over turning, then getting pull up/out and finally, learning about "Yardsale OTF's"...

15,22 or 28 should look like Seth or any other Pro who cares to put it on Video. But, it does not look like that same Pro running -32 or 38... 

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So you're a first year course skier and you decide to go to ski school for some lessons. You can kinda scrap your way through 28 and 30mph 15off, but it's not real pretty. You're on the dock with 3 people; Seth, a 34/39off tournament skier and a 34/22off practice only skier. Your discussing the fundamentals of 15off skiing. You get bold and pose the question to all 3 at the same time - "would one of you show me how it's supposed to look at 30mph so I can take some video and study it later?" Which one would be most beneficial for to the newbie to watch and record?
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I'll take a stab at answering that one. We had SS at a clinic this spring. At end of day I was in the boat while he free skied at either 32 or 35 off. After he dropped, a girl in the boat asked him what changes do you make to convert that to 15 off...to which he replied....let the rope out and I'll show you. There was plenty to learn by watching him ski 15 off...much more than you'd get from any scrapper.
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Back to the original post. I think the video of Rossi testing the strada at swiss is pretty good. 

I like this one of Andy Mapple too.

 

 

These guys have pretty good form at least..whether or not you should try and emulate it isn't something I should really offer an opinion on.

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Which one would be most beneficial for to the newbie to watch and record?

That's one's easy: The best skier you can find.

The only issue that's under "debate" is whether you'd learn more studying that skier at -15 or at something shorter.  I don't have anything more to add on that -- I think this thread now presents a lot of useful viewpoints.

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Couldn't agree more on the wim decree video on you tube myself. Now am a bit biased because am belgian and skiing at the place where he started to ski near brussels.  But apparently he was skiing 28 off after 2-3 weeks of skiing, a real talent.

What I like about his skiing is the fact that it seems to incorporate the best off all styles. He has compressed style but not to the point of tw or mb, his onside is a bit stronger than offside but who's isn't, and he is so damn early, even at 39.5 off. Head and shoulders level all the time, you can see him clearly look down the lake at every turn, which i am told to do as well but that's not everyone's opinion. Still never seen someone go from 28-to 39.5 off that easily. Think he hasn't made it to the absolute top because he is quite handicapped in lenght. (5.7)

 

anyway look it up, even if it is just to compare to the big names... youtube wim decree...

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Video of great skiers is what you want....as long as you know what to look for. Read Butterfield's handle control article, then watch the Wim video. Read Butterfield's article then watch Terry Winter. Read Butterfields article then watch Andy, Chris P and Chris R...see where I'm going with this?

At 15off try to copy the technique without copying the pace.

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