Skiing without a wing

[lkb]

Horton, do you still ski without a wing? How do you handle the extra speed into the buoy? I have been skiing with a Schnitz speed fin with the built in wing. With the settings it's on the wing angle is pretty much zero. My reasoning for this setup is to reduce drag. Anyhow I reckon it's pretty similar to no wing at all. It feels great at 22 and 28 but I can't keep a tight line at 32.

[lkb]

Horton, can you give your thoughts on this? Thanks

[Horton]

Ahhhha  darn. I saw this thread a few days ago and got side tracked.

First of all: what I have to say only goes for 34 mph. If you are at 36, 7 to 10 degrees is all I know.

At 34 I personally do not run a wing because, with a wing I tend to dig a big hole on my “Onside”/ “Heel Side”.  Without a wing I carry my speed around the ball better. I suspect that if I was technically a better skier I might use a wing. If I initiated my arc back to the wakes sooner and smoother I could use a wing with success. I also ski better on stiffer skis for the same reason.

 I believe that a wing causes basic drag at the back of the ski. From the edge change to the ball you could get the same effect with a ½ bolt (or a sandwich baggie). Right after the apex the wing changes functions and helps the ski finish. Totally different thread/subject. DW are you out there?

Technically speaking: I believe that the drag is not directional until the apex. It is simply turbulence and cavitation. Some engineer will correct my terminology but my point is the wing DOES NOT actually pull the tail of the ski DOWN. The wing causes drag that draws the ski under the skier and flattens the ski. Imagine if you caught a baggie at your edge change: a wing is a tiny baggie that shows up at every edge change (I know now I am going to regret this analogy)

With the ski flatter there is more rocker in the water and the ski really wants to arc back to the wakes.

Over the years running without a wing has gone in and out of fashion a number of times. In some areas everyone runs a wing and in others. . . . I do not run a wing no matter the water temp or mood. I try all skis with a wing for a least one ride. (Hmmmm need to do that with Strada)

The question is, do you need drag from the edge change to the ball? Different skiers will give you different answers. Personally, I think that if you feel fast at the ball and have slack, your problem is technique and not settings.  Are you stacked? Do you have a tight line all the way to the ball line?

Also. If you do run a wing, general rule is never less than 6 degrees or more than 12 degrees. If you got a speedfin to Zero degrees, your settings are freaking crazy. Set your fin to stock and start over.

[lkb]

It's got no angle because I've got it set short. If the ski turns my offside nicely is there really a need for a lot of length? And btw, not keeping the line tight all way out to buoy width is probably what's wrong.

[Horton]

Without video I have to say: Go to stock settings with or without a wing. Fin and binding. Get stacked, stay stacked and work on handle control.

[lkb]

Ok. Thanks

[Chef23]

lkb, for me at 32 it is all about the gate. If I get high on the boat at the gate and get good angle into one ball I am in good shape for the pass. If I am not wide the whole thing feels narrow and fast with a ton of slack.

 

I agree with Horton about handle control. I do better at 32 when I I try to be slow and smooth with the handle. I also feel like I need to stretch a little more at 32 than I do at 28. The final thing is patience in the turn. When I am patient the ski finishes the turn and I come out with good angle and am earlier. When I rush back to the handle I wind up without good angle and I am late and don't run the pass.

 

I have only been making 32 off passes for about a month but my last 5 sets I have run 32 in every set and it was off the dock in one of them and the ones I missed I was deep into the pass.

[LeonL]

lkb,

I'm with Horton.  If you're at zero with a Schnitz speed slot fin you're way off what Schnitz recommends.  Give Steve's settings a try.   You might like 'em.  BTW, what ski are you on? 

 

[lkb]

It's one those skis they forgot to put a core in.

(warp 8) :-)

 

Didn't he develop that fin for Goodes?

[lkb]

Chef thanks. I'm about to go work on my handle control!

[lkb]

Leon just got your entry, btw. Are y'all gonna get into town early enough for a practice set on Friday?

[aguylikeshark]

---> with a wing I tend to dig a big hole on my “Onsideâ€/ “Heel Sideâ€

 

this is true because at this instant (weight on back foot) the wing is pulling the tail down.

 

F1 - what does a wing on the back of the car do? Downforce - but under braking the whole car is lowered. Same with a ski. The wing allows the skier to stick the ski to the water with more force. How it operates all depends on weight distribution of the skier at that point in time.

[lkb]

I put on a 106 CBR and set it to more normal settings. No wing. Skied a set. No better on my outbound into my offside(however the feeling of the carbon fin is nice-it feels smoother and more forgiving). For the next set, I moved the boots back one hole and left the fin alone. That made a world of difference. I felt like I was able to execute the right technique for going out to the end of the line. I actually ran a pretty much tightline 32 for the first time in a while and with no wing so maybe there is hope.

[DW]

JTH, the wing certainly adds drag, size and angle will determine the level.  To generate the drag force, outside the effect of surface drag, there needs to be a lift force generated to do that.  So, I would disagree that a wing only provides drag with no associated lift force at any time.  The technical term for it is L/D or Lift to Drag ratio.  In cars and planes, one tends to attempt to increase the ratio, or get as much lift for any additional level of drag generated.  Cars w/o wings generate values around 1 with creative thinking upping the value towards 2 (the gray area in the rule book or judicious use of the ground plane) and cars w/ wings attain values well over 2, ground effect cars generating much more.  So, any time you have a wing that has an attack angle to the water flowing over it, it will produce lift (and drag).  The attack angle will be what we measure since the water is flowing parallel to the bottom surface of the ski and is incompressible so the streamlines won't change (where they can with air since it is compressible).  To just compund the disussion a bit, ski flex will actually change the wing angle relative to the center portion of the ski but not the tail, but that will affect how the ski feels to the skier.  Also, drag is always directional, it is simply a force with a directional vector similar to lift, they will be perpendicular to each other (and the direction of travel, drag opposite of and lift perpendicular to).

[Than_Bogan]

Cool analysis, DW!

But now I'm left wondering exactly what the wing is "supposed" to be doing and when.  When is drag a benefit and when is it a liabililty?  Same question for lift?  And also aren't we often talking about a lift vector that is pointing into the water, what in less robust terms might be called "diving" force?  The wing is angled "downward" relative to the direction of travel after all.

My assumption has always been that the angle of the ski changes just enough to allow the wing to serve as a brake (drag force and/or downward "lift") during the preturn, but then not provide any resistance (both drag and lift negligible) during the pull phase.  But I never really thought that through or tried to measure ski angle at any phase to see if that hypothesis made sense.

Looking forward to learning more!

[lkb]

In general terms relating to drag that slows a ski, isn't carrying speed through the turn a major factor in being able to hookup cleanly and therefore be early to the next buoy? If yes, can you have too much speed? If the answer to that is yes then maybe drag is good sometimes??

[Horton]

OK DW,

Silly me.  Let me restate. As a skier: Wing drag does not effectively create lift (down into lake).

Logic would have you believe that the wing draws the tail of the ski down (tip up – increase pitch). In practice the drag pulls the ski under the skier so the pitch of the ski is actually flatter.   

I am not going to get into L/D because I know that you know about 1,000,000,000 more than I do on that subject.

Just so everyone knows: DW is a long time race engineer and aerodynamics guy.  I will let him give his resume if he wants. Let’s just say he is on a first name basis with a lot of those guys on ESPN and Speed Channel.

[T-UP]

All this L/D Bah Bah Bah is hurting my head!  Bottom line, take the wing off and go faster!

[Horton]

Maybe. Might get less angle and so less speed. All a balance.

[T-UP]

Seems to free my ski up on my gates without my wing, easier to get free from the boat. Took my wing off last week and i have been running 35 about 95% without verses 50% with

[aguylikeshark]

wing does in fact create true lift at a brief instant - that is lifts the ski out of the water. I call it the jacking effect. Andy, and Will are probably the most pronounced visually. it also requires a bit of help from the 2nd wake, but the ski's wetted surface is reduced, increasing it's speed and reducing drag. Also (the wing) helps the knees upward movement (off the 2nd wake) that scavenges space (or distance) in course. The wing in the (blades) down (screws up) position increases lift height but also makes the other effects more pronounced.

Remember that person on the air chair can go up, way up and down. The wing turns your ski into such a device - works best with a healthy dose of compression, speed and shorter lines.

PS - to the bottom of the lake is why i prefer to call it downforce THE WING>

 

[Horton]

What?

[aguylikeshark]

it's explained in more detail on the link. the above is point form. too busy to type out an essay.

[Thomas Wayne]

"...too busy to type out an essay."

Well thank God for that.

TW

(PS: Oh c'mon now, you know that was funny.)

[ktm300]

I want to hear what Paul has to say about fins and skis and I hope he keeps coming back to this forum. If you click the link he included in his last post, you will see a fully fleshed out article on the subject. Agree or disagree with him but, he puts a lot of thought into this stuff and presents it in a format that is a good basis for discussion. This is, obviously, my personal opinion.

[Than_Bogan]

As someone also prone to cranking out 100-page treatises, I have to agree, TW: It was funny.

Please make fun of me, too!!  We must live up to our new motto of not taking ourselves too seriously!

[skidawg]

Definately don't take a lot of this to seriously!!  Wing What?

[lkb]

I think what I'm trying to figure out is this: is a wing a bandaid for poor technique where I fail to convert cross course speed into outbound direction? Meaning that if I have a wing on and I don't get good outbound then the wing slows me down enough that I don't get slack even though I didn't ski out to the end of the line anyway. Anybody know what I mean?

[Horton]

Wing standard. Use it. When you are skiing good try taking it off.

[T-UP]

After my set this morning i may be putting mine back on!

[lkb]

I think I'm gonna try the plastic baggie first...... :-)

[Horton]

Please get video

[DW]

A point to ponder, getting back to JTH's original comment is the effect of a wing at different points behind the boat.  The wing forces will be pretty constant throughout the run, a level of lift (either + or -) and drag.  The body's force on the ski vary a great degree, applied at the center of the ski or between the boots, which I think is where John feels the comparative lack of or actual lift forces from the wing in the area he discusses, there is a fair amount of downward pressure from the feet on the ski.  A comparison to cars, aerodynamic lift or downforce is added to vehicle weight to provide the acual downward force of the car to the track.  The rear wing angle would act similar to the ski wing by providing a front/rear balance or trim.  The drag component acts like a brake as noted.  Sorry for the essay!

[Than_Bogan]

more please!  (Yes, I am serious.  I would like to really benefit from your knowledge of the what the hell is going on here.)

[LeonL]

lkb,

 

I hope to be able to get there late afternoon/ early evening.  I'll email you.

[aguylikeshark]

Try putting your wing at +2 or +3 degrees. That is drop it past the zero point so it's the "wrong way". The wing creates lift as soon as you ride the ski - pushing the tail of the ski up and tip down, turning your ski into an unbearable monsta. Give it a try.

[Horton]

Aaaa Hmmmm yea I guess. For anyone who reads this forum with the hope of skiing better: I personally can not recomend Paul's suggestion. I mean if you want to try it for laughs, go for it. For serious skiing I do not think that is a good idea.

[bhs]

Aaaaa Hmmmmmm I think all of us planed on trying it! Good point on what a wing could do for you good or bad.

DW, question for you. I like what you said about using the wing on a car to provide front rear balance. In a car I would think you would need external forces becuase you cant move the engine around to find balance. However with out a wing on a ski cant you move the bindings to find that balance point?

[malibuowner]

Drank the kool-aid today.

I think Horton might me on to something. More testing needed but I'm liking what's happening so far...

[aguylikeshark]

+2 or +3 (I forget what I used) - a free skiing STUDY EXPERIMENT ONLY. I still remember the day I tried it. Didn't last too long

OK here's a pix of the force balance on a water ski. I'm showing two of the forces that the wing imparts - the downforce and more subtle the wing torque. WING R US>

 

Stand on the front boot, the wing anchors the back of the ski and the skier can mash down on the ski's pressure center = more forceful contact with the water. Stand on the rear boot the wing lowers the tail raises the tip - making the ski faster.Wing torque adds tip if the skier is balanced over the center of the ski. That is why these baseless wings which eliminate so-called parasitic drag is not worth it. That parasitic drag is actually building some power into the ski by adding a bit of tip pressure.

 

 

[DW]

BHS, yes I agree with your thoughts, moving the bindings will also move the load point the skier puts on the ski just as moving the engine will move the center of mass location on a car.  It will also increase/decrease the moment arm between the wing and fin and the skier load for vertical load but not drag load.  Moving the wing up or down will change that moment arm as you change the distance to the bottom of the ski surface.

[kdeupser]

I skied without a wing for years.  Then once I started learning 32' off I installed the wing once again.  I don't like it, but it's a good crutch for burning speed and increasing tip.  I was using Schnitz's mini-wing on my previous ski's, but now I am on the HO A-1 and using stock settings.  The stock wing is like a huge parachute.  And now that the water has warmed up so much here in Georgia, I have slowly been taking wing out to compensate.  I have gone from 9 degree's to my current setting of 7 degree's.  If the water warm's up any more it's coming off.....

All of this of what the wing does blah blah blah.  It definitely works.  Pretty simple, we have alot of first timers in our course here in Atlanta, and the first pointer is "Get that wing off!".  They are always narrow and fast until they learn to actually ride their ski's.

The wing is an excellent invention, and Schnitz has up'd the ante with the speed slot fin, which I need to use more.  I tell you something strange, but one of the guy's I ski with can tell when I am using the speed slot fin.  He say's that he can hardly feel me back there when I'm using it.  With the stock fin I tend to pull the boat around more. 

 

.02,

Ken D.

[h2odawg79]

A Simple analogy from Ben Favret;

Higher (upside down) on the Ski -"Provides more deceleration and Braking. The Ski also rolls on edge more because of an increase in tip pres. on your on-side turn".

Lower on the Ski -"Provides more stabilty through the wakes and in the turns. The Ski will turn better on your Off-side because of the increased tip pres"...

Increased angle -"increases drag and slows the Ski more quickly"...

Decreased angle -"Allows you to carry more speed through the turn"...

 

My quick 2 cents; INDIVIDUAL RESULTS MAY VERY! -Remember, EVERYTHING is a trade off. Especially when you factor in all the ENDLESS variables of: Skier technique, (or lack of) Skier ability, Skier equip., Equipment set up (or lack of) Ski conditions, Water temp. PH, etc. etc. Blah-dee, Blah, Blah...

So, take the Basics and apply them to your Ski and your unique set of personal circumstances... "If something works better, -Great! If it doesn't, -then Try something else"! http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif