Powervest in Big Dawg

[ForrestGump]

I realize this might be opening a big ol can of worms. But after the Big Dawg this past weekend, this has been stuck in my craw.   But what is everyone's thought on the PowerVest in tournament usage? The reason I ask is that I spent most of the day and evening Saturday in the tower.  I watched a LOT of skiers, watched a lot of boat paths, and listened to Tyler Boyd and Charles Mueller flap their gums a whole lot. LOL. During the evening events Dave and Dawn Goode were up there, too. I think Jeff Milford, you were there, but it didn't register who you were until the next day. Had I realized it, I would have introduced myself.  Anyways, one of the things that Dave said when he was talking over the PA with Charles about the powervest was that he has it set up to take 75% of the load and it allows him to make 20-24 passes in a set in practice.  At the time I didn't really think about it. But the next day during the sweet 16, Bruce Dodd had to ski a lot. He was in the semi finals and had to ski deep into 39 to advance. Immeadiately, he was pulled back to the dock and had to get ready to ski against Todd Johnson in the finals. He's lucky if he had 5 minutes to rest. That's when I realized that not only is the Big Dawg(or any heads up slalom event) about skiing, but it's about endurance.  For someone to reach the finals, they'd have to ski 4 times in around 3-4 hours. And if a device is used that would increase endurance in practice, it only makes sense that it increases endurance in a tournament round too. So how would I feel if a competitor, wearing what the manufacturer claimed in front of hundreds of people was an endurance enhancing device,  beat me in a round? Personally, I wouldn't like it very much.  Jeff, I know you use the powervest and I'm not meaning to single you out or offend you in any way. But is everyone really ok with this?  I never really gave it a lot of thought before hearing Dave speak about it, but the more I think about it, the less I'm ok with it. 

[Thomas Wayne]

As long as a piece of equipment - ANY piece - meets AWSA specs (or is not forbidden by AWSA rules) I don't see why it wouldn't be perfectly fair and legal to use in a tournament.  Certainly the MasterLine Pro-Lock gloves give a grip advantage, and no one has a problem with those.

The Goode Powervest  is available to all skiers on an open market, which means if you believe it's an advantage to use one then you are as welcome to do so as anyone else.  If it were denied you (or any other competitor) and only available to Jeff Milford (or whoever) then that might be a different story.

Mind you, I've never tried a Goode Powervest, and have no idea if it lives up to its advertised benefits or not, but I don't think you can consider it unfair, since anyone is free to use one.

TW

[MrJones]

I have thought about this a good deal in the last year or two. Here is what I have come up with.

 As a very traditional and conservative guy who is also a physical therapist I do not believe the powervest should be allowed in competition. The reasoning is this. Say you have two skiers of equal physical skill, technique, and mental toughness competing against each other. Given that any skier at this level is reasonably fit, one has put in 50% more time in the gym/offwater developing core stability and general strength and endurance than the other guy. My feeling is that this work should earn that skier an advantage, especially in competition where endurance is a factor. (I am not saying it is cheating. There is no rule against it. Just my belief about how it "should" be)

On the other hand. I had back surgery 4 years ago and still struggle with being able to ski (and work, and pick up my kids) due to recurrent episodes of  pain. I own a private lake and have a wife who skis along with young children who are getting into skiing. There is a strong possibility that in the future I may be a "powervest" user to to allow me to still participate in the sport I love spending time with family, friends, etc.

Life is full of decisions/opinions that are not so clear cut...   

[disland]

That ridiculous, are you going to outlaw carbon skis, adjustbale fins, hard shell binders, how about jump slings. Maybe we should all ski on wood skis, on the atlantic ocean with manual driving so no one is excluded

[9400]

I see both sides of the argument, I feel strongly the way Shane does...but also agree with Thomas and Scot.

Shane, how many people were using it?  Was Jeff the only one?

[ForrestGump]

Dave mentioned that 20% of the top 16 had them. So I would assume there were 3 in the finals.

[ski6jones]

Yet the winner was NOT wearing one.

I think it provides an unfair advantage, even though it is allowed by the rules.

Use it in practice, ski tournaments without it.

[LeonL]

I have to agree with Thomas.  It's a piece of equipment that's available to everyone.  I don't have one and don't plan on buying one but I won't complain if someone skis better and/or longer than me while wearing a PowerVest.  Having said that, I have a hard time believing that it can be that much of an advantage.

[MrJones]

disland,

Carbon skis, adjustable bindings, and hard shell bindings are differnt arguments in my opinion. Now I can see the jump sling being a much more direct comparison that I had not previously thought of. It is a piece of equipement that  skiers wears to decrease fatigue and improve resistance to pull from the boat. With it as a precedent I guess the power vest would be very similar in the slalom event.

That is why these discussions are good to have.

[slow]

Outlaw the power vest and clinchers. We don't need the crutches in the sport.

[Ed_Johnson]

It is disturbing that the people complaining about the Powervest have never skied with one. I have owned one that I bought at Nationals last year and used it only 5 times. The first time I tried it I ran 24 passes. Yes, it does improve endurance but I only view it as a training aid and would never use it in a Tournament. It simply feels a little cumbersome and slightly restricts angulation. It is great if you suffer from back pain and still want to ski. It would probably benefit Old School style skiers better than New School.

As far as banning it, you can't ban something that is available to EVERYONE. In fact, if anyone wants one I will sell them mine XL for only $375. It is in New condition and only used 5 times and has been hanging in my closet for months.

Bottom line is while I can ski LONGER with it, I can ski BETTER without it.

Best Regards,   ED

[MrJones]

Slow,

I broke my ankle 6 weeks ago. Unfortunately crutches are frequently needed in (or because of) our sport!http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif

[ForrestGump]

Scot, I think most people would consider a jump sling a safety item too.

[DW]

This discussion should get very interesting when a new record is set with one.

[skidawg]

As a retired jumper the comparison between PV (power vest) and jump sling doesn't correlate.  It is a safety item, jumping without a sling (for any distance) would be very unsafe.  Now jump on this comment how ever u dogs may?   ;-)

[skidawg]

Personal opinion about the PV, looks to me like it allows a skier to use less technique and get away with holding on to big hits and keep skiing,  Not really what I am chasing when I ski ( I personally like that feel you get when you do it right).

[Jim Neely]

Good discussion

[HO 410]

I don't think the effects on endurance are insignificant, but it does not seem that it would provide the same kind of increase in performance that something like a bench press shirt would. (This might not be a great example because I think the unassisted bench record is something like 40% lighter)

 

 

[Milford]

I agree with TW.  The powervest is available to everyone, so if you feel it gives a competitive advantage, you should try one.  I have personally been using the vest for over 2 years and it has allowed me to ski pain free, as I had lower back surgery 5 years ago that did not completely fix my herniated disc.  The powervest has been designed to give skiers with back injuries an option to help alleviate some of the pressure on your back.  Similar to other products on the market, such as back braces, clincher style gloves,  and knee braces, the powervest is there to help, but does not fix the problem.  I have witnessed many skiers try the powervest that do not feel it is an advantage.  It really comes down to personal preference and choices.  The skiers that are using the vest seem to have suffered from some sort of injury mainly to the forearms, shoulders or back.  These are the skiers that realize the benefit as they are forced to explore all options.  In a sport that is aging and back problems are a real concern, I am a huge supporter of this vest and will continue to use it as I have personally experienced how much pain back problems can cause.  I have 3 children who are getting into the sport and as they progress, I will strongly urge them to consider wearing such a vest, so they don’t have to go through all of the pain/surgery/rehab and stress that a injured back can cause. Before you get to worked up and think the vest is a competitive advantage, I would urge everyone to set their ego aside and try one.  You may find that the guy skiing with the vest has a significant disadvantage.

[9400]

Jeff, thanks for your insight and your story. I have to admit I'm very ignorant of the PV. Do you feel there is any technique enhancing value or is it something that distributes the load when you're in the right position? I thought Ed had an interesting take on this from someone who has tried it but did not need it. Jeff, I guess my real question is ...if you did not have back trouble would you still use it and why?  Thanks again

[Milford]

That is a difficult question.   The bottom line is you have to ski correctly and do all of the things you would normally do to ski well. The vest does not make you a better skier.   If you change your style because of the vest, then your scores will drop significantly.  The vest is there as an insurance policy if you need it.  If you are running the vest to tight, it is difficult to get free of the boat and wide on the buoy.  So to answer your question, I probably would not have considered it pre-back surgery, but now that I have used it, I really like the way I feel.  Everyone that I ski with that has started using the vest have not increased their scores, however, they are pain free, which is a really big deal.  I normally ski 6-8 passes per set and am ready to come in, so for the guys that are running the vest so tight that they can ski 20+ passes, well I think that they are missing out on the true value of the vest and I don’t think any of you will have to worry about competing against those guys in a head to head finals.  I still hit the gym regularly, work on my core strength and operate as I would without the vest, as I do not want to injure myself and miss out on a season.  If you are healthy and don’t have any arm, shoulder or back issues, then the vest may not be for you.  It is a personal choice and is available to anyone who feels it will help them.

[bmiller3536]

I say ban the powervest in the Big Dawg competitions but allow in regular AWSA competition.

 

 

[Steven]

Thanks for the insight Jeff. On Fathers Day I injured my back pretty bad. I ended up bulging 2 discs in my lower back. It took 2 days for me to be able to get off the floor and has taken a full week to be able to walk un assisted. My fear now is that I'll never get to ski again. In the past 2 days I've seen some improvements and have been able to do some light stretching. I'll be seeing a therapist soon. But in your opinion, will the PV decrease the pressure enough to allow me to ski again (eventually)

 Thanks,

Steven Haines

 

[Ed_Johnson]

Steven,

I would say the main purpose of the vest would be to relieve back pain, since the load is transferred from your shoulders to your Center of Mass. It will also help you to keep a quiet upper body. Everything Jeff said is exactly correct and the only competitive advantage is it allows you to ski when you have physical problems that may otherwise prevent your participation. No 35 off skier is going to strap it on and go run 39. As I stated in my previous post I could ski LONGER but not BETTER. I do believe it would help you in your situation to ski when you otherwise could not.

Hope This Helps,   ED

[Steven]

Thanks Ed,

All I'm hoping for now is to be able to ski again. I think I'll be able to, but not for quite some time. I've pretty much written off the rest of the season.

[MAD11]

Steven,

I would think the PV would be a great product to help you get back on the water and would be a smart thing to try. The question of if it should be allowed in a tournament is a different one. The Big Dawg is supposed to be about best skiers competing in an endurance event. The strongest physically and mentally will win that day. The vest takes out the endurance piece. I know when I tested the vest at nationals I was able to pull with almost twice the strength that I was able to achieve without it. When I tested one that a freind had I ran right up through 38 and didn't work at all. Pretty straight forward that it provides a significant mechanical advantage. Also I could hang on to stuff that no way could I have if I wasn't wearing it. We also saw this all weekend by the competitors using it. Don't agree with the comments about it not making some ski better. If that's the case than train in it all you want, but show up to money events and ski without it. I could care less about someone wearing it in a C tournament because they really don't matter at all. No way should someone show up to a record or a money/endurance event and be allowed to wear it. It's an unfair advantage that takes away from all the hard work and training that the others do.  It's a great story to think back to Mike Morgan winning the finals when he was totally exhausted and somehow reached down deep to answer the call and pull it out. Standing there Sunday the guys without the vest looked tired and stressed even though they were in top shape. The guys that were wearing the PV looked like they had hardly skied afterwards. Most sports have great training tools like this available that aren't allowed to be used in competition.  This should be seen no differently. Buy and train in it all you want, just don't try to take home money with it.

[lakeo]

   I liken it to golf.Certain clubs and certain balls are not allowed. On the other had if you think of it as a safety issue then it certainly is as legit as a hockey helmet. Given that the sport is already so affluent (newest ski, newest speedcontrol etc. etc.) I'm inclined tosay what is one(or$500)more thing.

[ToddL]

lakeo wrote, "Given that the sport is already so affluent..."    I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  I teach tons of beginners and some people who are just trying to get past 4 ball in the course.    They ask me if they should replace that 1984 Jobe ski.   I suggest a few intermediate models which now run about $200-400 new.   They are stopped dead in their tracks.   You can see their excitement about our sport pop like a bubble as their smile fades...    They kind of relent to a likelihood that they will just ski on the public lakes with their families and not really compete.  

Yep, golf is expensive at the top level.  Snow skiing, too.   Little-league baseball is out of hand these days.   Fishing lures are $7 each.   Hmmm... maybe I need to ask for a raise at work...

 

But I digress.   Back to the PV - great discussion!!!  Not yet formed an opinion...  Never had an opportunity to try it either.  I struggle with buying a new $100 normal vest.  (currently wearing an Outrageous vest bought at a garage sale for $5...)

 

[Dirt]

I thought it was already banned. The Berkeley Wednesday night ski league banned it a while ago. I have never seen one, but I think you should have to use something like that in a special division. You have all probably seen the amputees that get carbon fiber lower legs and can sprint and jump much better than before.

As for jump slings, the jump event is athlete against jump, in my opinion.

6/30/2010 OWSA Open Lake - Glass City - 1 (10M129)
Water Ski with our club behind competition boats and experienced skiers. All ability LVL from 2 ski beginners through beginner slalom course skiers.
Liberty Center, OH
YES  6/30/2010 NorCal MasterCraft Wed. Night Ski League - 5 (10W191)
Handicap based scoring for nightly and season end prizes. The PowerVest is banned from this competition.
Berkeley, CA YES  6/30/2010 Lowe Down Wed Nite 1 (10S091)
2 Pulls PandC,   Slalom  2C , Trick  1C , Jump  2C
Hillsboro, TN

[Steven]

I really hadn't thought too much about the vest before I hurt my back. It seems like it would be cumbersome and would take a lot to get used to. It looks and sounds like it's a lot of hardware to pack around but if it works like everyone says, I might need to try one. I never really thought about the competitive edge that it might provide but if it lessens the load to your body that much I can see where a person would feel as if they could be at a dis advantage. Since I have yet to try one, it would be hard for me choose sides. As for Jeff Milfords case, I think that it's awesome that he can ski at his level after having a serious back injury. At this time, I 'll thank God when I'm able to ski again with or without a PV.   

[Mateo_Vargas]

I'd like to see some stats.  Who are the users and which direction have their scores gone since using the vest?

[RichardDoane]

Horton - you need a survey about this topic on the BOS Website, then we'll get some data. Possible questions : Have you used one ? Would you use one if $$$ was no issue ? Would you don a PV to continue skiing when injured ? Do you think a PV should be allowed in competitions ?

[rawly]

HEY HORTON...When you getting one,so I can try it out?Who's the Arvin area rep?

[eleeski]

All gymnasts use a grip enhancement. It allows better cooler tricks.

Clinchers have been available for years. They really help with grip. But not everybody uses them and scores don't automatically go up with Clinchers. Should they be banned too?

Right now the Goode vest is the only one on the market. But there are many ways to achieve the same thing without violating Goode's patent. The market is too small and the benefits too subtle to justify the development of that product. Dave develops innovative products that work because he skis on them for his own performance benefit. We just get to share his results - if we have enough money.

Specifically prohibiting Goode products sounds like unfair bashing of Goode. Berkley is wrong and skier hostile to make such a ban. I will boycott any tournament that bans the Powervest.

Eric

[skiergeeg]

in power lifting there are classes that wear denim shirts that allow lifting heavier weights. there are classes that disallow the shirts and the weights are always less. the record for each class is hundreds of pounds apart. if the point of a head to head includes testing the endurance of the athlete and people who normally can only run 6 to 8 passes can run 20 make a separate class or disallow.

[eleeski]

Skiing is a skill sport. The Powervest does not improve your skill or performance. Weightlifting belts improve your performance with no added skills. Even in that case, if I need to lift something for real, I will put on a belt.

A couple of years ago the Tour de France leader was kicked out for questions about cheating during training months before the competition. The worry is that he could train harder and get an unfair advantage in training which would translate to the competition. If the Powervest is cheating, then it should not be allowed for practice.

All the jumpers I talk to claim the jump sling is a performance enhancing device which carries its own injury risks. I personally don't jump with one because my jump skills are so undeveloped that the sling is too much for me. But my young healthy son does use one. The precedent allowing a Powervest device is solid.

To reject technical improvements is wrong. That this debate exists saddens me.

Eric

[ForrestGump]

Eric, no one said anything about banning a Goode product, specifically. The talk was about an endurance enhancing device in an endurance event. Not to mention a cash money endurance event. Big Dawg winners are pro athletes by every definition in the books of any sport in the US. I don't have a problem one with a guy like Jeff using it to get over an injury. Heck, I tore a rhomboid in my back 2 years ago and every time I roll out for the pullout it hurts like a muther. I've had the thought that the powervest would help with that and allow me to ski pain free. And if I could find one to try I just might end up being a PV owner. But when the mfr toughts the endurance enhancing properties, it raises a red flag to me FOR THIS TYPE EVENT. If a Tour de France team came up with a device for their road bikes that would take some of the load off of their legs on the downpedal strokes, allowing them to be fresher at the end of a 100k hillride, what do you think would be the response of other teams?

 

[eleeski]

Endurance waterskiing is ski racing. They have lots of devices beyond gloves.

Maybe the Powervest is an advantage for Big Dawg but not maximum buoy counts. So you'll use a different vest at Nationals?

A bigger ski might also be an advantage for a Big Dawg endurance event. Should big skis be banned?

Greg Lemond used an innovative handlebar to win the Tour. His results still stand.

Eric

[DW]

There are very valid points on either side of this argument, for every technical assist device allowed in competition, there is one banned.  An example would be a golf cart, that is available to all, but is banned in PGA competition, the Nike full slicksuit in swimming is another.  Bottom line is the organizing or regulating body will be the group to decide the legality of this particular device, but the input in this forum is certainly excellent and brought forth by many experts.  My favorite "banning" is when the Andretti's were banned from LeMans at the start line (after investing much$$) basically because a french driver was not included in the line up!  It was pretty common to add one in the '80's for that very reason as the sanctioning body is French.

If the powervest (or any similar product) does allow one competitor to hang on to the handle for one extra buoy in competition, then it provided a performance advantage.  Same logic would apply to many other products also. 

To Eric's question on using a different vest at different events, certainly, you set up your ski differently for different conditions and many events force one to change a (race car/airplane/boat/motorcycle) configuration to compete either at a certain track or different series using basically the same vehicle.

[Old MS Accout]

Ban them in any head to head competition. If they do not make you ski better, it wont matter when it comes to competition.  

[HO 410]

Jeff, I think I understand, but could you expound a little bit on how you use the vest as an "insurance policy"? As long as you're at it, could you give some insight on what you were able to run when you had the vest setup to ski 20+ passes.

[slow]

To me it's like Aid Climbing vs Free Climbing. If you want a league where you can have all the mechanical crap you want to get the next bouy or ski forever than create one. Just keep it out of legitimate events. It would be interesting to hear from pros like Asher, Mapple and Beauchesne on the topic.

[Ed_Johnson]

PRO-EXAMPLE

Nick Parsons is a Goode Sponsored Pro Skier. Goode has videos of Nick skiing with the PV, however, I have never seen Nick once ski with the vest in competition, including Head to Heads. I'm sure Dave would love to post videos of Nick winning a Pro event with the PV. So obviously, Nick feels he can ski better without it. I feel the same way. I had it for a year and sold it for half of what I paid for it. If I had a back condition I would have used it more, but I felt it inhibited angulation and counter-rotation. I am all for anyone that needs it wearing it, so they may enjoy this sport.

Check Six,   ED

 

[HO 410]

Aid versus Free is not a fair analogy. In terms of rock climbing the PV could more farely be portrayed (as I understand Milford's posts) as climing a top-rope rout as compared to climbing lead.

[Champ]

Sorry guys -- Milford, Kilsdonk- these guys are for real.  Hang in there guys ski proud.  Keep it up.  

[Dirt]

Champ, I think everyone agrees with you that those guys are for real. This is just an interesting discussion about whether endurance enhancing devices should be allowed in competition. Is there more to it than endurance? What if the main limiting factor in your skiing is your strength to weight ratio and ability to keep the handle in? Does this vest help with that? If so, it could make a 35 off skier run much deeper shortline.

I don't think the PV should be banned. We don't want to exclude people from our sport. I favor the suggestion to make a notation in scoring or a PV division.

[lakeo]

If you think having your own zero off will make you ski better at tourney's you go buy one ditto with a new ski. So why not with a vest?

[skibug]

Steriods and HGH anyone?  What about drug testing; i don't hear anything about this?  So, where is the line drawn?

[diablo]

Wayne Bundy just dislocated his shoulder skiing with a power vest.  Major crash out the front.  Looked like he wasn't able to release the handle.  Drug by boat.  Is there anyone that thinks USAwaterski should be addressing this safety issue.

[eleeski]

I use Clinchers. Sometimes they can be a bit sticky or slow to release. Since I let go of the handle fast and early, I need a glove that lets go of the handle easily. So I rubber band the webbing to my fingers and the release is as good as the garden gloves I trick with. However if I want to hang on too long, I can. Plus, I just injured my shoulder by hanging onto a trick with my garden gloves - waterskiing is not risk free.

I use hardshells. With hardshells I can take far more passes than I ever could with rubber boots. Since this piece of hardware enhances my endurance, should hardshells be banned?

The rules are clearly written to allow a powervest. Long precedents allow use of similar products (clinchers and jump slings). Our sport has a long history of embracing technical advancements. Lets explore and enjoy the benefits of this one.

Eric