BOS EZfintool Slalom Challenge Internet Tournament

[h2oski]

I would like to sponsor a internet tournament for BOS readers.  Here is how it could work.  You would enter each time you skied in a class C or higher event.  There would be 4 tournaments in the series, June, July, August and Sept/October.  The rules would be few and simple:

1.  Skiers would enter a day or two prior to each tournament they ski in with their name, region, division, current average from the AWSA website, and the name of the tournament they will be skiing.

2.  Men and Women 1 and up divisions only, no BG divisions.  Everyone skis in one division.

3.  Averages must be based on at least three tournaments in the last 12 months.  AWSA applies a penalty which lowers your average if you skied in less than three.  Honor system:  If your scores are @15 off and you are being scored at long line, please adjust your average so it reflects your actual buoy count and If you have three scores on your average but they were 87.5, 89 and 2.5, you might want to adjust that to a realistic figure.

4.  Most bouys over average each month wins a EZfintool. How about if we charged a $1 via paypal each time you entered and that was paid back each month 50% 1st, 30% 2nd and 15% 3rd with 5% from each month held back and paid to the individual with the most over average for the entire series.

I have talked to John about this.  We need help.  If anyone has a idea of how this could be setup online so that it would be quick and easy to enter and track the scores and if they would volunteer to help set it up and or run it that would be great!  Comments or ideas on the format and rules or if there is even any interest in it would be appreciated.  We just want to keep it a fun type event.

If there is enough interest and we could get it setup, we would like to make May a test run to see how it works  and John would award a BOS Tshirt to the winner.

Terry

[Horton]

I think I have the tech bits worked out. Not a big deal.

My rules are basically Terry's but am very open to ideas.  I think there will be only one entry per skier per month for simplicity. Terry and I will talk about this further.

I want to do a preseason round for the month of May. At the end of May we can all talk about the rules for the real season.

The Preseason costs $.25 to enter. http://www.ballofspray.com/ez-fin-chanllenge

I am charging only to weed out skiers who are not really interested. It might be fun to award the funds to the a season winner or the monthly winner. What ever is fun.

[Horton]

Here is how I plan to keep the data.

http://www.ballofspray.com/eztoolchallange

Handicap = 2009 USAWS Average (This is under review)

MayScore= the highest score posted this month

Delta = the difference between handicap and mayScore

Rank = your rank!

[MattP]

lets say I have never skied any AWSA tournaments so I do not have a Average what would be done then? Ski the first month to create an average then go from there?

[Horton]

Yea.... Rules like that are going to take some thinking. Sign up and we will worksomething out. Terry and I talked today about the problem of lower level skiers advancing too fast. It is not uncommon for a lower level skier to pick up a pass.

[RichardDoane]

MattP, it's time for you to start skiing sanctioned tournaments ! If people would put their real names on their entry info page, we can just use the ranking list to verify tournament results. Everything should be based off of sanctioned tournament results. Sorry, but I'd just say no to any INT scores. As for the guys who pick up a full pass - that's great because it's all about doing your best. The law of averages will catch up soon enough. I'm in, and will be glad to help.

[Cam]

What about us foreigners? we are starting to feel left out of things.

[disland]

I have done a handicap $500 prize in conjunction with one of our tournaments every year for the past several years. We pay money through 5 places. The rules are very similar to what you are proposing here. I take the tournament score and compare to the AWSA ranking list (I back out the penalty) A skier has to have at least two scores in the system to be eligible. No kids, they improve too much. At first I got complaints from big dawg skiers because they felt others could beat their number more easily. However what I figured out is yes lower level skiers can put up big scores. However they are less consistent. As such the big dawg guys have been in the money every year. What we have settled on now is if a skiers average is above a full pass at 38 off they score double points for any amount over their average. This systmes has worked the best.

 Enjoy!

 Dave

[h2oski]

Yep, this one is based on your average from sanctioned competition and the scores you ski this season in sanctioned events.  Wade is doing a summer league on his site where you can gather your buddies and enter based on your practice scores.  The "average system" in place now opens the door for a lot of different ideas based on averages and handicapping.  Anyone doing optional "side pots" at their tournaments with payoffs based on handicap scores, similar to what you might find at a bowling league? 

Cam, any kind of organized competition where averages are maintained that you participate in?

Terry

[Horton]

my bottom line

However the scores are gathered and validated, it cannot be complicated or subject to interpretation. The core data must be beyond reproach. There is not honor system. For the moment USAWS is the only easy source of certified scores that I am familiar with. INT does not post scores that I know of.  I am open to foreign data if I can get it and it is not hugely time consuming.  

Someone is going to be excluded because we cannot make rules that fit everyone. If we try to accommodate every possible skier we will screw it all up. That is just the way it is. Once we get rolling, if we can create other rules for other specific groups, I am all for it.

Guys like me, Zapper, Ward, MS, Eric, Roger, and Terry who have been skiing in tournaments for years almost never move our average by a whole ball at a once. Guys like MattP who have not skied many tournaments may improve by a pass or two in a month. I want to be inclusive but if Matt (and others like him) are in the same group with the old guys it will not be any fun.

Once we get going, crying about the rules = unsportsmanlike conduct.  I do not want to hear it.  

[Horton]

can i get some of you to enter. It only costs $00.25. I need to now if there are any issues with the entry process.

[RichardDoane]

JTH - just did the paypal thing, does that get me an extra buoy ?

[Horton]

No but you are #1

[ToddL]

The issue about the upper level skiers have a greater effort to add buoys is an interesting one.   Double buoy deltas is one solution.  However, if this is going to be tracked in a spreadsheet, then we could have a more complex formula...

Consider a formula where:   Buoy Delta * Coefficient = Ranking Delta

The Coefficient would start a 1 or 100%.    The top-level skiers would get this coefficient.   The coefficient value would decrease as the skier's average decreases.    Thus, a beginner skier with a average buoy count of less than 6 buoys may have a coefficient as low as 0.01.   

We'd have to figure out a few scenarios for assigning the tiers or the formula for coefficients...

We could come up with a formula where the current World Record represents 1.000 and 0 buoys represents 0.01 coefficient and all other buoy counts are equally dispersed between these two.    Then, the skier's average determines the skier's coefficient.   Thus, a beginner skier's ranking delta would be significantly reduced compared to a world record skier's ranking delta.   Thus, a beginner skier would have to improve by 100 buoys to equal a world record increase of 1 buoy.

 

Other thoughts?

 

 

[RichardDoane]

there are some really smart waterskiers who read the BOS ........

[Horton]

Todd’s idea is pretty darn smart but for now, for the preseason, let’s strive for ultra simple. Using B.D.C. (Buoy Delta * Coefficient) might be a phase two evolution.

 

Todd,

I am using excel. Can I get you to mock up some scenarios?  Where does this idea shine and where does it fail?

 

No matter what we do, I am still worried that Zipper will win.

[Horton]

See the entry list and standings http://www.ballofspray.com/eztoolchallange

[ToddL]

I burned some BTUs on this last night with excel.  I wasn't satisfied with any of the models, so my assumption of how easy a formula would be may be incorrect. 

Attempt 1 - put zero buoys at the bottom, world record at the top.   Equally disperse those buoys across a 100 point range to create coeficients.   Thus, a single positive buoy delta for the world record holder would yield full value of that boy.  However, a skier at the bottom end (say 6 buoy average), would have to ski like 100 buoys better to equate to the 1-buoy increase of the world record.      Issue - a bit to hard on the new skiers...

Attempt 2 - start with the linear coefficients from attempt 1, but then apply a second coefficient in the form of a normal curve so as to no so severely limit the beginners.   However, this model resulted in making the mid-level skier's penalized deeply.

Attempt 3 - drink more beer, get some sleep, try again later...

I'll see what else I can come up with.    If anyone has an opinion about what "fair" weighting should look like, please share your thoughts.   

How many buoys should a 22 off skier have to improve by to equate to a 1 buoy improvement from a skier at 39 1/2 off?

What about LL skier?

etc.

 

 

 

[ToddL]

Another faulty assumption in these models is that a skier with a lower average score is more likely to improve.  Skiers can stagnate at any point in their progress.  Some people will just never improve above 32 off.   Some people will never see short line.   Some people will knock at the door of 38 off all their skiing careers.    Thus, pure delta from average for those people is probably fair as is...

 However, there are some skiers who have not hit stagnation and continue to improve.  They are the winners in this type of handicapping system.  The skier who's average is about 22 off and who is progressing each time...  He or she will be the one to post big deltas.

 

Hmmm... I wonder if there is something about the number of years a skier has been skiing as a factor of the handicapping...   If the skier is new to competition, one would expect that skier to be improving at a higher rate than a skier who has been at this for many years.   

Thus, a 35 off skier who has only been skiing for 2 years is more likely to be able to improve by lots of buoys when compared to another 35 off skier who has been skiing for 15 years.     Maybe that's part of the formula...   

 Need more coffee...

 

 

 

[Horton]

Todd,

You might need some of thishttp://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/ProductImage.aspx?pc=DALOB.15YOV1&w=150

 

 

 

 

 

 

I assume that most of the time, older skiers are less dynamic then younger ones. My average has been plus or minus 1 or 2 balls for years. I think most M3/M4/M5  are the same way. The darn kids are the issue and since we do not have a lot of girls 2 that read the forum I do not think they will be too mad if we rule them out. 

[h2oski]

Todd,  you have brought up some really good points.

Here are my thoughts:  For this year, I think we can go crazy trying to handle all the "what ifs".  With the entry being a $1 a month or a $1 a tournament, its a fun thing.  I hope we could get at least a 100 or thousands of skiers who are willing to invest the dollar.  Hopefully they will ski an average of 5 events this year and they are skiers from beginners to extreme shortline.  Then we would have over 500 rides to look at through the winter.  Maybe at that time, we can tweak things to level the playing field.  If it looks like we can achieve a greater level of fair competition by changing things or if we find out its good the way it is, then we could make the tournament more interesting next year.

Now,to add to your comments, 

I'm a 22 off skier and I had two PB's in tournaments last year, both by a 1/2 bouy. 

 Skiers with a average of 5@ 28 off or 4 to 5 at any longer lengths have a chance of besting their average by as much as 3-4 bouys because they have a good chance to get around 2 at the next length if they finish the pass they are working on.  A skier with a average of 5 @38 may not have as good a chance of getting past 2 at 39 if they made 38 in a tourney.

 If we can get enough skiers to participate,  I think we may find that competition may be more even by putting skiers in two or three groups based on averages, instead of one large group.

The good skiers are probably better at getting through their easier passes and "getting a shot" at beating their average each round than someone like myself who doesn't get to that pass every time.

Everyone, enter tournaments, pay your dollar and lets see what happens!

Terry

[skidawg]

Alright, peer pressure got the best o me, I'm in

[RichardDoane]

Terry - if we ski more than one event in a month, do we average the scores, or just figure the best?

[h2oski]

Richard, I think each time you ski would be a separate entry. Your average could be different at the end of the month than it was early in the month. Your best score over your average that month would be used for the standings.

[RichardDoane]

Horton - I was just trying to enter Offc.Friendly, Tomas, Braden, and JeanB but paypall kept "dumping" me. I feel like I just hit a buoy and the handle got away, RATS !

[bmiller3536]

I am in, sounds like a lot of fun.

[ToddL]

I tend to over-think things sometimes...  I agree with the other comments - keep it simple this time around.

Questions:  

If a skier skied in a multi-round tournament, do you count each round in your "last three" scores?  

Also, if only one score per tournament is allowed in the skier's average, what's the rule in selecting which score from the multi-round tourny? (highest, avg each of last 3 tourny's, etc.)?

[RichardDoane]

I'd recommend following the way sanctioned events are scored, in that in a multi round tournament, it's the only highest score that counts.

[Horton]

Hey Zipper I fixed your handicap!

[Horton]

This is all really Terry’s idea and I am looking for a consensus so this is just a suggestion.

One entry per month per skier
Highest single score over that month is the skiers score

If we do this on a monthly basis you can chase as many scores as you can. We only count the single highest score so number of rounds skied is not a factor.

[h2oski]

My opinion is a little different than John's so I'll throw it out for discussion.

One preseason tournament-May, four regular tournaments June, July, August and September-October. 

Enter our online tourney each time you ski in a "C" or higher event.  When you enter each event, the average you use would be your current one.

Scored the way sanctioned events are scored, one score per tournament, one two or three rounds.

I like a separate entry each time you ski a tournament because your average could change each week if you're skiing tournaments or by the droppping of scores that become more than 12 months old.  If you ski three tournaments in a month you should have to pay a whopping $3 to get three shots at posting the top score!

It was pointed out to me this weekend that your "average" is not really your average score, but the average of your three best tournament scores

so the winner in the early events may be "closest to their average" instead of the most over their average!

What's everyone think?

I finally got to ski this weekend Laku's water temp was 55 air 59.

[D Wolters]

I'm with JTH,

Use 09 scores

Use USAWS ranking system

one entry per month, high score entered (easy to track using ranking sym)

no brainer....except the spreed sheet

[bmiller3536]

I like the idea of just taking your best score for that month but at the begining of each month your average should be adjusted to match the current AWSA average

[RichardDoane]

AWSA averages adjust every time a new score is uploaded following a tournament; they'll adjust up instantly and won't drop down until a year has passed and a high score drops off. 

[RichardDoane]

JTH - thanks for the "adjustment" of my handicap, now I just need to do my part and "attain" that 105 !  On a more serious note - where on the BOS Home Page are you going to place the "BOS/EZfintool Slalom Challenge" Icon ?

[Horton]

I think long term; Terry’s plan is close to where we want to be. The thing with anything like this is, we need to grow is progressively.  One step at a time.  

I say we start out with a month long term & count only the one highest score.  As we see what participation is like and we gain experience we can move in the direction of Terry’s idea.

Has any skied a tournament yet?   

Is there anyone who would like to own the spreadsheet and keep the scores? I will need it in my specific format to get on site but that is easy.

[RichardDoane]

Horton - our first event is this weekend, how many "takers" so far for the BOS/EZFin Challenge ?

[Horton]

May is not really happening but June is for real. Let us know how you ski and I expect you will be the maybe the weener.

I have not added any scores because I did not think there were any http://ballofspray.com/eztoolchallange