Difference between Good Side & Bad Side?

[Horton]

I am working on an idea that is not necessarily all the way cooked. Comments and additions welcome. (If Eric agrees then this is all wrong.)

If you think about the difference between Good Side (Heel Side) and Bad Side (Toe Side), I think you need to divide the differences between what your body does from how that affects what your ski does.

On your Toe Side – Bad Side – 1/3/5 RFF (compared to On Side)

On the way to the ball:
1) You hips are generally more rotated toward the wakes
2) Your counter rotation  - hips, shoulders or whatever is less
3) Your inside shoulder is more leaned in
4) Your weight distribution is more forward
5) Your body is more in-line (right to left)

On Heel Side
The opposite of all above -on Heel Side (On Side) you are more countered with less weight on your front foot. With the additional counter rotation you can more easily move your hips toward the wakes and keep your inside shoulder up.

If this is all correct, you turn your ski with more weight on your front foot but less roll on Toe Side. On Heel Side your ski has more roll but has a more tip up attitude.

Make sense?

[Thomas Wayne]

 

Hasn't it been taught forever that you control your off-side with your front foot and your on-side with your back foot?  This sounds a lot like what point # 4 & your conclusion are saying...

TW

[skibug]

Your legs work in concert no matter what; but, on your bad side your back leg is working against (or across) you body's natural motion or force.  Consider if you were in a tug-a-war.  You wouldn't cross your front leg across your back to gain ultimate force, balance, and leverage; you would have to switch your stance.  I think, until there is a ski that allows your to switch your stance mid-pull; we are stuck with trying to overcome the natural force diagrams of physics.

[RichardDoane]

Try not to have a "bad" side, symmetry is the goal.

[h2odawg79]

Skibug,

I love the "Tug o war" analogy. Everytime I used it on other boards, someone is always quick to say: "But, Slalom is NOT a Tug o War"... And I have to remind them of the Basic dynamics involved. The legs do work in unison or "in concert" for Balance and Leverage. And as far as LFF or RFF most people are naturally predisposed to Rt. or Lt. dominance anyway. And then they voluntarily practice and perfect these motions with Basic sport movements Growing up. i.e. A pitcher throwing a pitch(start to finish). A batter stepping into a swing. A golfer tee-ing off. A bowler during the finish/follow through at the line. A boxer throwing a knock out punch. etc, etc.... 

[DW]

I have eliminated the off side / on side problem with the following.  Velcro the ski top, wear velcroed tennis shoes and at the Apex of the turn push knees forward to disengage the velco jump up and switch stance.  Thus you are skiing on side both ways and don't have an off or weak side.  BTW, April Fool.

[Gern Blanston]

In attempting to better my technique, I've pretty much given up trying to have my back knee tucked into the bend of the front knee like I was taught many moons ago.  Doing so allows me to better rotate my hips and have my legs work a little bit more independently of one another when they need to.  Am I off base with that?

I also find that when I need to concentrate on technique that I can pretty much only focus on one thing.  The most helpful thing is to keep my shoulders level.  If my shoulders are level, everything pretty much aligns itself down - assuming I'm centered on the ski, of course.

[Horton]

Ok so only talking about from the wakes to the ball, do you guys agree with my first post?

[Marco]

You hit the nail on the head in my opinion.  The greater tip pressurer explains the tip stall I often get on my offside at my shortest line length.

I thought Terry Winter's photo of the transposition of his offside shows it clearly.

[Jim Neely]

To Horton:

Yes, except I would never use heel side/toe side when referring to slalom. I understand it but it makes no sense when your feet are in a straight line.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

You are generally correct, including the not all the way cooked part/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif

 

You have identified a real situation, now the hard part is to determine what is the cause, what is the effect, and what can/should you do about it?

 

I think the reason most skiers turn with more pressure on the front toe on the offside and back heel on the good side is precisely because of the way the body lines up with the ski –it naturally shifts the weight distribution on the ski.  The reverse image photo of Terry is a great example of how the body lines up differently and affects the way we turn the ski on each side.

 

If you pretend for a minute that from the waist up, your upper body could behave exactly the same on each side, for example, Terry’s reverse image would be exactly the same as the regular one.  How would that affect the way the ski turns on each side?  It would probably turn very symmetrically and it would be much easier to stay balanced on the ski.

 

I keep coming back to the similarities between snow and water skiing.  The really good snow skiers are very still from the waist up, with the shoulders facing perfectly downhill while the skis and knees go back and forth.  The Olympic mogul skiers were flat amazing in this regard.  I believe the same principle applies to slalom skiing.  The goal should be to keep the shoulders facing perfectly down course all the time.  Counter-rotation is automatic if you do this.  It is much easier to keep the shoulders and eyes level.  Angulation between the upper and lower body can actually happen on both sides.  If the angulation is the same, the ski roll will be the same on each side.  Weight shift from front to back foot will almost disappear.

 

Of course as long as we have one foot in front of the other, it will be next to impossible to keep the shoulders ‘perfectly’ downcourse, but that should be the goal and the mental picture to achieve. 

[eleeski]

I"ll lose some credibility by disagreeing with Bruce, but waterskiing is a lot different than snow skiing. Waterskiing turns are 2 seconds long, snow skiing turns are ten times faster! You cannot move the upper body fast enough in snow skiing to match your feet. Control of the upper body is critical for both but some people use a stilted excessive counter-rotation which may hurt their balance for slalom.

There is no heelside/toeside in slalom. Wakeboarding or snowboarding yes but waterskiing no. Heel pressure in slalom offers no benefit on either side. The body mechanics of the good side allow beginners at slow speeds to really stomp the back foot and kick up some big spray. But this is just a bad habit to break in the course. Proper fore aft balance is the same on either side of the course. I personally have too much tip pressure on my good side - 4 ballitis causes most of my misses.

The offside turn has the best body mechanics position as you approach the ball. It is easy to start the turn in good body balance. As your turn progresses, the body mechanics deteriorate. Survive the pull (a bit open to the boat helps me some) and just be patient until the good side turn helps improve the body dynamics.

No wonder my buoy count is so low!

Eric

Maybe Horton is filtering my comments out - maybe this will post without a user error.

[RichardDoane]

Eric - stop fixating your vision on the 4 ball, and remember to get it back up where it belongs on the 5 as soon as you're sure you'll round the 4.  I blow it there regularly.

[eleeski]

My favorite coaching tip is "don't look at the ball!" I wish I could follow my own advice... 

While I am not a great GS racer (Laura Johnson's time trounced me in the last race I tried - she is fast), the GS course is not the few balanced turns of waterski course. Sometimes as hard an edge as you can hold is followed by a smooth edge. Transitions between wildly different turns are the challenge of the gates.

GS turns are also symmetrical right to left. Body mechanics make slalom completely different right to left.

Angulation from the knees down works on snow for some turns. Cranking the knees over will almost guarantee you will not make the next ball.

Besides who GSs when there is fresh powder?  Or a sweet zipper line in the bumps!

Snow skiing does require lots of dynamic balance - just like waterskiing. That is real. Doing some snow skiing in winter will help your waterskiing. It snowed a foot as typed this. Powder tomorrow!

The new ski is just out of the mold needing its finish. In order to balance good side / bad side I will mount both bindings offset to the left (I'm RFF). This gives more edge control on the edge which is harder to control due to twisted legs.

Ski design and setup can to some degree offset the biomechanical limits of slalom skiing. Does this mean I agree with Horton?

Eric

[RichardDoane]

Eric - looking at the ball is ok, as long as you are looking well in advance, and get your vision up to the next ball on schedule.  I don't know how many times I've fixated on the  ball for too long, only to end up swimming right beside it....

[h2odawg79]

CommentAuthoreleeski

***Previously thought to be #1 Mens 55+ Tricker in the World***

How did you ever get your Cool "Pink Banner"?!?!

[MattP]

***Previously thought to be #1 Mens 55+ Tricker in the World*** ? When did this change from *** #1 Mens 55+ Tricker in the World***

[454SS]

I think that looking at snow skiing has a lot of benefits, as a snow skier turns either the left ski or the right ski leads depending on which way they are turning. As a skier turns left their left ski leads and carries most of the weight and determines the apex of their turn while the right ski really generally just helps balance and support, the left ski then carries most of the weight all the way through the turn until the edge change where the exact opposite happens. The difference in waterskiing happens when we get to our offside turn and the foot that would naturally balance us through the turn, and determine the apex of the turn is instead behind our support foot, the only reason our bodies can be in this position is because of the rope, in our offside turn we lean on the rope to much through the turn and across the wakes, the less we lean on the rope and the more balanced we can become on the front foot the more efficiently we can ski the offside turn. I think that in general you will always have more line load on the offside turn because you really are trying to turn and stay balance on the ski a way that is completely opposite to what your body would normally. I don't know maybe this is all completely obvious to you guys but I just started thinking about it as i was reading this thread and thought I would comment.

[eleeski]

I am an old 54 now - I'm not sure how I got my ranking. I do understand how they recalculated it. It was fun to be in the mix (Cory has a lock on the 45 group and Paul Risch has the 55s) and it was fun while it lasted.

The banner occurs when Horton puts you on probation (MS has been there too). I'm not sure it was pink when I was #1 but I guess falling off the top puts me back on probation.

I missed lunch today cause the snow skiing was too excellent. So while I take a contrarian position maybe I do follow the collective wisdom of this site. Oh wait, I am still building my homemade skis. Horton, can I have a new BallOfSpray sticker for the ski I'm building?

Eric

[Drago]

 I would say JH is correct. In snow skiing, in a turn to the left, the left ski leads because your left hip is leading. Their is very little weight on your left ski, because physics won't allow it.A car has nearly all it's weight on the right tires [front going into the turn and rear coming out of the turn, generally], because of physics. I would do yourself a favor and think of waterskiing as waterskiing, and skiing as skiing. Their are simalarities, but it takes a lifetime to truly understand them, so it would take two lifetimes to understand the differences/similarities. Look at Brent's article in WaterSki. It makes no sense. It didn't twenty years ago, either.

The only true similarity is that your hips TRY to be perpendicular to the force. This is the "strongest" position skeletally [is that a word?]. The forces are extremely different, and the goals are extremely different. Ski racers try to use gravity to get them down the hill [going with the force as much as possible], waterskiers resist the forces only as much as needed. The off-side is different because your hip can't lead.

[Gern Blanston]

ELee -

I recall reading an article in Skiing magazine a number of years ago that compared the times of maximum muscle contraction for snow skiing to other sports.  Snow skiing had BY FAR the longest durations.  Compare it to say a tennis serve where the muscles fire for 10's or 100's of a second.  Snow skiing was something like 1.25 seconds of sustained, maximum exertion.  I'm not at all sure how this compares to a water ski turn as either the article did not compare it or I simply forgot.   My only reason for bringing it up is that yes, a water ski turn takes longer to complete, but I'd bet you're using different muscles for different aspects of the turn.  There's definitely more of an upper body strength component in water skiing.

With the off side turn I prefer to think that I can't get my hips out of the way.  That's why I don't try to lock my knees together any longer.

[h2odawg79]

Another interesting aspect to add to the mix is; The relationship of dominate Leg and Sub-dominate Leg. As some skiers use their dominate leg fwd. and some  put their dominate Leg in the rear! This has to have some Balance and counter balance effect on both the turns and the pull aspect. Maybe for better and for worse... Which leads me to believe that skiers turns are not all created equal.

i.e. Think about a Rt. handed, Rt. Footed person throwing a Ball. Dominate Rt. leg "Rocks" and pushes off and the Sub-dominate leg Lt. leg, is Always the "plant" foot. The same Guy Batting Rt. handed, Same scenario, "Rocks" back on the Dominate Rt. and steps into or onto the sub-dominate everytime. The same guy serving a tennis Ball, Throwing a straight Rt. knock out punch, Driving a Golfball always the same.

Most of us grew up playing these kind of sports practicing and perfecting this Very Basic move over and over a million times. Then someone comes along and teaches this same guy how to Slalom ski and for no apparent reason, (no justifiable reason) has him put his dominate, "rocking" Leg up front and he literally has to un-learn everything he's ever practiced and perfected in every other sport he's ever played !

Then ther'es the Rt. hand/Rt. Leg guy who learns to Slalom with his dominate "Rocking" Leg in the back just like it has always been... That's Got to cause some (no matter how slight, but absolute) Differences between skiers in the corners and in every other aspect of Balance, Power and Leverage...   

[h2odawg79]

B4 I get Hammered here for my above post, Make sure you Fully consider the Hip action, Balance, and COM thru the above motions... Before saying skiing has your legs in a straight line and Batting doesn't, etc, etc... Just think about it for a sec. -Then Hammer me! ha,ha...

[Thomas Wayne]

I have always started my new skiers the same way I was taught: whichever foot they would normally kick a football with goes in front (there are, of course, other confirming "tests" used as well).

TW

[RichardDoane]

I''ll have beginning skiers stand at attention, then have them take a step forward. Whichever foot they move determines their front foot for slalom.

[skibug]

My test has always been telling the new skier to stand up and i give them a gentle shove from behind; then what ever leg they catch themselves with is the front leg.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Ditto what skibug said.  That's how I was taught, sure seems to work.

Ed

[robscholl-OF]

Amen to RD, skibug and Ed.  That is why I am left foot forward.  If I would go with TW's method, I would be a right foot forward......Come to think of it, if TW's right, I have been skiing backwards all these years.  Maybe if I change, -38 will be in my future......OF

[h2odawg79]

Well I certainly didn't write the above to Hijack Hortons Idea post. But, those are some inherent differences that will have an impact on tech.

As far as the "which foot tests" I still gotta ask; How do these "tests" really prove anything? -I'm not neccessarily saying their wrong or right. But, I was taught with exactly the same "test" as T.W. except, and a very BIG exception, the Ball kicking foot should go to the REAR! (which by the way, keeps it in the same relationship as some of the other above mentioned sports!?!?)

I don't want to dispute a right or wrong. (as it can be done either way...) But, there is probably a "Better" or "optimum" choice for the majority of "New" skiers. But, more importantly, Who made up these arbitrary "tests" anyway?  Wheres the Proof?  Forget the opinions and beliefs from what we may or may not have been told Waaaaay back, by other people who were just telling us what they had been told and over and over the cycle goes. -All based on what? -basically, Hear say and "ol Wives tales...

How about the Funniest "Test" I've ever heard; "Just do what ever feels the Best"! -That's about like telling a Girl to throw the Ball how ever it "Feels" the Best. (as, Most girls "feel" best throwing off of their FRONT foot! Everyone knows, no girl throwing off of her front foot could ever make the team. But, with some help she can Learn to actually throw with proper tech. and one day make the Varsity team...) In fact, when it comes the Art of Slalom, most of the tech. stuff is counter intuitive anyway. -So much for what ever "feels" the Best! 

Sometimes, we know what we know. But, even Great rationalization doesn't mean we're right...  

[Thomas Wayne]

I don't think there's any "right", necessarilly.  I've used the "kicking foot", "step forward", "surpise shove from behind", and the "walk up those stairs" tests - all methods taught to me, btw. In my experience a typical testee will exhibit using the same foot for ALL the above tests; using more than one method is sometimes a redundant way to be "sure".

So OF would be the less common case of someone who prefers one foot to be dominant for some activities and the other foot for others.  Not saying that makes him an oddball or anything... but I don't recall seeing that very many times over the last few decades.  When we did bump into contradictory results we'd usually use a "preponderance of the evidence" - terminology I'm sure OF is familiar with.

TW

[eleeski]

h2odawg makes a very good point about dominant foot affecting onside vs offside turns (not a thread hijack). I ski with my dominant foot forward (RFF) and my offside is not too much worse than my onside turn. I'm too lazy to set up the poll: HOW BALANCED ARE YOUR TURNS vs WHICH FOOT FORWARD ARE YOU.

Is h2odawg's inference that LFF as the "normal" stance is responsible for some of the onside / offside differences valid? And is LFF an advantage in slalom?

When I start a skier the truly relevant question is "what foot forward does your dad ski with?"(or mom or skiing partner). RFF is the default because I feel it is a slight advantage to have the dominant foot in control of the ski for one footed tricks.

Alan Podawiltz slaloms LFF and tricks RFF! And does both well. Is that the optimum setup?

Eric

[Gern Blanston]

some people are just naturally more ambi-dextrous than others, too.  For those people, I don't think it matters which foot is forward as long as there is consistency and repitition.  Perhaps that's what's up with Alan Podawiltz?

[robscholl-OF]

TW, it probably goes back to that genetic thing with me.....................as for, "preponderance of the evidence," that only gets me to probable cause or guilty in a civil case.  I need "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" before I can move on from this dominant leg issue....OF

[skibug]

I also sort of think that the skatebaord test is a good measure.  Which foot do you put on the front of the skateboard, same leg as you should put forward for slalom.  In all the sports that were mentioned, ie baseball, football, golf, etc....your push off (or power leg) is not your dominant balance leg (ie front leg in slalom).

[h2odawg79]

Re: "your push off (or power leg) is not your dominant balance leg (ie front leg in slalom)".

--- 

Exactly! So, why should the dominent leg (pwr. leg) all of a sudden be put up front when skiing? especially when you consider the balance ratio between feet in the pwr. positions of slalom. i.e. approx: 40/60 (40% to front and 60% to rear leg) out of the appex and into the Pull.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Re: "I need "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" before I can move on from this dominant leg issue"....OF

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

That's exactly how I feel about the so called "Tests." -Where is the proof? (for any of them...)

--- 

Consider the Kicking "test" for a second. A Rt. footed kicker steps into the kick and Plants his Lt. leg. (please stand up and physically do this in ultra slow mo...) As the foot is planted, your COM is moving forward, your ankle begins to flex fwd. and knee bends and begins to move slightly over the top of the plant foot. (Bowling @ the foul line is the exact same thing...) As this is happening, are you not in a very well balanced and strong position? Is this position not almost exactly how you should come into the turn while getting over the top of the ski and increasing your tip pressure and beginning the 1st 1/2 of your turn? Not to mention, all the other Balancing effects that flow out of this seemingly "Natural" position...

--- 

If the "push test" and some of the other "tests" were Absolute, then wouldn't it stand to reason that a person who "steps fwd" with his Rt. leg and thus, would then be deemed a RFF skier by this "one act alone", should also be deemed a Left handed Hitter or even a Lt. footed kicker? Because the Lefty steps fwd. into the swing or kick with his Rt. leg also? -I'm just sayin'!  But, no one would deduce that would they? On the other hand, when I played Baseball, I could hit with Great effortless Pwr. switch hitting. But, I had Way more accuracy and coordination batting normal...

  

Maybe as Eric mentioned, some events might even favor the Dom. leg fwd... Yrs. ago Speed and marathon water skiers put their dominate leg fwd. to be better able to resist the linear pulling forces and the fwd. attitude of the upper body for long periods of time with little or no turning... Personally, we were talking about a simple "Tug o war" contest, I would prefer my dom. leg in the rear. I am definitely more Balanced and powerful in that position.

Hmmmmm... I don't know!?!? 

SORRY  HORTON! -maybe something Good will result from all this Head scratching!!!

[robscholl-OF]

Man I am glad we only have two legs, can you imagine the conversation if we had four????  At least I have a 50/50 chance of getting it right......OF 

[eleeski]

There does not seem to be any advantage to RFF or LFF. Maybe a few more of the top skiers are RFF but there are a lot of great LFF skiers. This suggests that there is no correct or better foot choice.

There may be mechanical differences in the onside/offside turns related to dominant foot forward/backward. But these differences do not preclude sucessfully rounding the buoys.

Alan started tricking in college. There was only a RFF trick ski. His playing around got him good enough to stick with RFF for the tricks. His slalom was good enough LFF to stick with LFF. He's now highly ranked in both. Hard work and talent are far more important than his foot choice.

Choose forward foot for convenience, not by how one steps or kicks. Train hard and smart on the right equipment.

Eric

[Drago]

Man, I'd give my left leg to be ambidextrous...;)

[454SS]

Gern I agree with your comment about some people being more ambidextrous than others in teaching a friend to slalom who I know can kick a soccer ball equally well with both feet I told him to put whatever foot he felt more balanced on in front he then proceeded to get up on his first try with his left foot forward, later that day he got up and skied well again but said it felt different than before, we then realized that this time he had put his right foot forward. For myself playing soccer for most of my life I just feel more balanced with my left foot forward as that is my plant foot a majority of the time when kicking a soccer ball and it just feels more natural to lead with that foot.

[bmiller3536]

this sounds like the chicken and the egg argument, which came first?....no definite answer just opinions

[h2odawg79]

One thing is for sure, There sure are a lot of skiers using their Dominate Leg!!!

[DW]

I put my right foot forward because that is the one I stand on the gas with! (and really, isn't that all that's important?)