Butterfield answers "What the Heck is Handle Control?"

[Horton]

See the home page

www.BallOfSpray.com

 

[rq0013]

Wow I thought that was a very good article. I liked how he gave many examples of how to acomplish the same thing.

[Steven]

Where does Bruce live? I want to ski with him!!!   (can you say stocker?)   Great Article

[ThorrenKoopmans]

Great article, thanks Bruce.

I have never had a lesson with a professional coach (though I have had some good tips from very good skiers). I typically rely on tips on forums, in magazine articles and whatever else I can get my hands on to improve my skiing. Stuff like this, with detailed explanation is great, as it sticks with me and I can actually visualize what I need to do, even as I read it.

 I can't wait to get out on the water and try it. Unfortunately it's snowing right now and chances are it's at least 2 months before I get that opportunity.

[RichardDoane]

Thor - we'll try it out for you this weekend, and report back !

[Horton]

Check out  Butterfield's First Law of Slalom http://ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=23

This is a few years old but changed my understanding of skiing.

[Adam Caldwell]

Bruce,

Killer article.  We need to have more of this stuff out there.  Issues with pictures that explain the rights and wrongs with some details, but without hitting the F=ma as you put it.   Good work!

 

[Horton]

Anybody else want to try to step up and write for BallOfSpray?

[Adam Caldwell]

SO I had a couple after dinner and couldn’t stop my brain.

I still have a question though, under the “Why is it important, section: 1)†bruce says that the ski will go flat as the handle is pulled away from the body.  Let me try to explain why I am confused.To me..  When I see the handle stay tight to the body, I see the direct link between the body and the handle.  But it seems like when the handle close to the body, and also close to the center of mass, that the ski is actually FLATTER in the water, then it would be if our arms are extended with the bungee cord linkage system. In my eyes when the handle is close to the center of mass and body, the moment arm that the handle/rope/boat has an ability to work on our body is minimized.  This does two things for us.  First, It reduces the torque put on our core, allowing us to stay up on the ski and continue to direct our inertia outbound and in the direction of the turn.  Second, it minimizes the leverage the handle/rope/boat has against upper body allowing us to keep our center of mass over the sweet spot of the ski longer, keeping the ski a bit flatter in the water, enabling the ski to maintain speed and direction as it heads into the next phase of the turn.

When I see someone get their arms pulled away from them of wake number 2, their entire body is becoming torqued by the force from the handle/rope/boat that is rotating them and shifting their center of mass toward the tail of the ski and in towards the boat.(the exact opposite direction you want to be advancing your center of mass in the preturn).  Aside from the massive loss of speed and direction, when this phenomenon takes place it seems to me that their ski rolls up to a more aggressive turning edge(not to a flatter ski).  This leaves the skier with much less surface area of ski in the water to support their weight, causing the tip to rise/tail to sink, and they end up skiing a much narrower path, at with little conserved momentum. Also since there is nothing underneath their center of mass, and their lack of outbound inertia produces little centripetal force they begin to get that falling over look/issue.  Not to mention, once this happens they have no hope to counter rotate because all the stored energy in their body has been given up to the boat, or re-absorbed by the recoil of the rope early in the preturn and they are not in any position to make a dynamic athletic movement.

So in conclusion  Am I wrong in my understanding that if...

The handle is:    

1. close to body - on a steel cable - during the preturn   THEN ski is on a turning edge, but flatter and faster allowing it to get width before rolling up on an aggressive turning edge and creating our optimal wide arc in the turn. 

2. Away from body - on a bungee - during preturn THEN skis is on a more aggressive turning edge, not allowing the ski to carry outbound before begging to turn, putting them on a narrower line, with greater losses of energy. 

Or is it that when the handle gets pulled off the body, the torque from the boat alone is enough to twist the body AND the ski to be facing completely up-course, and that is what makes the ski flat? 

Please Advise!

[Boody]

This stuff is what makes this forum great.  In addition to the social aspect of the forum, I am into equipment and instruction.  Great article, thanks Bruce, I respect and value your opinion on this stuff. 

So, is it just me or does Jamie B. seem to ski with his handled 12" from his body the whole time (slight exhageration but not much)?  How does he make that work?

[Steven]

I noticed that too with Jamie. It looks like he never gets the handle in as close to his body as you would think he would need to be to be able to run those insane passes he runs! He is obviuosly very strong and very aware of his position on the ski at all times! He (I think) exagerates his movements, as in positons his C.O.M. to which ever side of the ski, better than anyone in the industry. It looks as if he has had alot of training early on in his life running gates. (snow skiing)

[Tom Henderson]

Adam

 

 

Here is my thoughts on all of this:

 

First off when I think of handle control I think of a skier maintaining control of the handle through the edge change(just needed my own definition there). This allows the ski to travel through and underneath the skier onto its new turning edge. (see pic of Cale) This allows the ski to continue on an outbound path while maintaining your speed and momentum, while also not creating excess down course speed. Obviously the shorter the line gets the more important it is to get the ski to the other side of your body.

 

 

 

When a skier lets the handle get away from them the pull from the boat goes directly to their shoulders and it is easier for the boat to pull them out of position (the boat has more leverage on them). This leads to the boat pulling the skier over the ski and onto the new turning edge as opposed to the ski traveling underneath and through the skier. This is not an edge change just a flop from one side of the ski to the other and does not take any real ski or athletic abilities. Here it is the skier is just coming in toward the boat and not the ski continuing to move outbound. (see third pic in the article) Now the skier has just lost all of the hard work they accomplished on the way into the wakes because they are under the boats control and have lost outbound direction and outbound momentum. There now heading right at the buoy at Mach 3 and all they can to is cross their fingers, crank a turn around the ball and hope they can hold on to try to do the same thing again(not a good chain of events if you ask me).

 

 

 

 

As for the flat ski, you can really see this exaggerated with a beginner coarse skier. They come across the wakes with very little momentum and energy, they let the handle get away from them (probably because they have never had real control over it in the first place) and they come up to a flat ski. With a better skier it is harder to see this because they do have more energy and momentum so their ski gets a little further from underneath them even though they are completely under control of the boat. The end result is the same for both skiers, they have excess down course speed and not enough outbound direction.

 

As for anything in our sport there is a lot more going into this than I have touched on here, but here I think I hit some of the aspects of an efficient edge change.

 

 

 

Thank you Bruce for posting this article and thanks to the rest of you for having some real conversation about skiing on skiing forums. I think it is rather pointless to argue whether or not basketball is a real sport for 2 weeks(which it is by the way)

 

 

 

You have to let a yoyo go down before it will come back up, and you also have to let your ski go out before it will come in. Its almost that simple....

 

 

 

Love life

Tom

www.balancelongboards.com

[Adam Caldwell]

Jamie is just Jamie.  One of the few that can successfully put concepts in motion and get it right!

I think he has just mastered the ability to ski an easier, and earlier line, that allows for a less sudden, more progressive acceleration and loading as he approaches the wakes (the load later concept), as to attain maximum speed and lower body load virtually directly behind the boat, (and minimizing amount of line tension) such that he can maximize the east west component of the velocity vector at the instant he crosses the centerline of the course, and rely on his inertia (speed with direction) to swing his body out to the buoy line almost as fast as he skied to the wakes, and then simply conserve momentum as best as he lets the ski swing out to the apex. 

Also, he is very successful in keeping his mass moving in the direction he is traveling, and staying up on the sweet spot of the ski all the time, allowing him to stay just a fraction of a second ahead of that moment when the boat is tugging at our body, rather than us tugging on the boat.

Sorry, been sippin on that bottle again..... Damn long cold winters. /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Adam,

Yes, you’ve had too many PBRs/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif   I’m sorry to say I know what PBR is, but glad it has been many years since I’ve had one.

 Get your handle section, and a friend, and try this simple exercise to see if it makes more sense:  

 

1. Stand straight up in a normal slalom stance with the handle at your hips and have your friend pull from the side, smoothly and firmly, while you let the handle “bungee†out to shoulder height.  What happens to your edge change?  Pretty much nothing.  That’s the third picture (the first Big Dawg winner BTW).  The boat is now 3 ft farther down the lake and your ‘edge change’ has done nothing.
2. Now hold the handle FIRMLY to your hips and repeat.  What happens to your edge change?  You get pulled over very dramatically.  The boat is also 3 ft farther down the lake, but you are now solidly on your turning edge and you are continuing to advance on the boat - and you maintain control of the handle.

As for Jamie, I have not studied his specific style, but the “compressed†style with the handle down very low, can still have that steel cable between the navel and the handle. In fact, its critical for that style to maintain that connection – it is just more difficult to do correctly.  If you want to see the potential of the compressed style, try the above exercise while holding the handle firmly at your knees.  VERY hard to do, but when done correctly, the edge change and carry out are awesome.

Glad to see others like the article.

[Thomas Wayne]

 

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I'll eagerly study anything Bruce Butterfield chooses to write about slalom technique.  We keep well-worn printouts of his past essays handy when we go skiing - they live at the top of the library stack at my lake.

TW

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Thanks Bruce, Ill give it a whirl. 

 

[Jim Neely]

Bruce,

In your article you state "Most decent slalom skiers can keep the handle in close through the wakes." I'm not yet a decent slalom skier. What are the keys to keeping the handle in close through the wakes. As I cross the wakes the boat begins to stretch my arms out.

Tom described me well when he said, "As for the flat ski, you can really see this exaggerated with a beginner coarse skier. They come across the wakes with very little momentum and energy, they let the handle get away from them (probably because they have never had real control over it in the first place) and they come up to a flat ski."

Jim

[D Wolters]

Bruce,

During my 20+ year's of skiing/competing with Ken Kenner all he would say from the boat was:

"DAVID.....Get your hand's in"

MAN...I miss skiing with that guy!

Good article!

David

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Jim,

For beginning skiers, its very important to learn to keep the handle close to the hips.  John’s “Basic Relaxed Position†is good info to start with.  You should be able to ride behind the boat with your knees and hips forward, and the handle right on your waist.  If you don’t start with the handle in, there is no way to bring it in once you start to lean.  

One of the bigger things with beginners is that when you do keep the handle close to the hips during the lean, you generate a lot more speed than you may be comfortable with – the natural, subconscious, response is to let the handle out and the ski go flat to a ‘less scary’ position.  

It may be easier to practice if you just free ski, pull up wide on the boat and hold the handle in close as you turn in, the pull through the wakes and continue to pull all the way up to the side of the boat.  Try to see how much speed you can generate after the 2^nd wake.  Coast and repeat.

[skibug]

I think another way of looking at keeping the handle close has to do with keeping you hips up.  If your hips sag back, your arms will get stretched out and there is no way to keep the handle close.  With the hips sagging back, the load of the boat is pulling your upper body away from your lower body.  With the hips up, and the handle locked in to your hips, the load from the boat pulls more from the center of your body.  You have to bring the hips to the handle just before you hook up with the boat, out of the ball.  At least that is the way my simple mind thinks of it.

[Jim Neely]

Thanks for all the help

[Steven]

Bruce,

 Do you have any insight about handle position during the reach? My question is: I reach with my palm down on my on side. I've heard that by doing this, it makes it harder to get open to the boat in the turn resulting in a more closed positon going thru the wakes. I've tried (quite a bit) to get my arm to twist enough to get the handle into a vertical position, but I really struggle with this to the point that I just give up. It really effects my buoy count too! In your opinion, is the hassle of re-training my body to change really worth it?  

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Steven,

Good question.  2 related points – first it makes absolutely no difference what your hand / handle is doing IF your upper body position is correct.  If you take a look at the high end skiers, their hand positions in the reach are all over the map.  There is also a lot of variation in how our individual shoulders function – that is a palm down reach that is very natural for one skier may be extremely awkward for another.

 

However, for some skiers, trying to get the handle in a certain position can be a key to get the upper body in the correct position.  Kind of like focusing on keeping your eyes level helps keep your shoulders level and counter-rotated.  I suspect some well intentioned skier had a key that worked for him, but may or may not work for you.

 For the vast majority of skiers, I think it is better to focus on keeping the hips and shoulders in good position.  Whether your palm is up, down, or vertical makes very little difference. 

[Horton]

looking  at photos and found this

[HachapiSkier]

Wow - Just the clarity to capture what I've been thinking about all winter. Thanks Bruce, and hats off to John for working this forum. Heading down today for the first ride of the season.

 

Tony

[Adam Caldwell]

Bruce, may I add.....

In the turn, we want our hips to continue advancing forward and stay in the center of the turn.

Just by sheer mechanics of the body, if the reaching hand is palm down, and reach is toward the water, then that shoulder is also down. In a turn this is the leading shoulder. Lets see what this does to our body and how it affects our balance.

Now stand in a full length mirror. Tip your shoulders side to side, but focus on what is happening to your HIPS. This is what REALLY matters.

The attitude of the shoulders governs the attitude of the hips. Unless, that is, you have no spine!

Now think about how that might be affecting your turn. If your reaching arm is causing your leading shoulder to tip inward, then notice that your hips are moving back ...NOT foreword. In addition, your hips move out from under the body, taking away that stacked position we need to maintain an athletic stance. This is taking you completely out of a balanced position, making you very vulnerable to more problems as you finish the turn and approach the wakes. Find what works for you to keep that leading shoulder up. For some, the palm up or palm facing shore works. For others dropping the free hand down.

Sometimes its not the reaching hand that pulls the shoulders out of level, but the free arm. That free arm can do some crazy stuff sometimes. If the free hand is way up in the air, then it could also be canting the shoulders in toward the boat (causing the body to prematurely rotate). Same effect that reaching palm down on the water can have. JB has said before to think about holding a 5 lb weight in that free hand. So it pulls the trailing shoulder down, allowing the leading shoulder to come up, and allowing the hips to come forward and advance through the turn.

I don’t disagree with Bruce in that the top skiers reach is all over the place, and very different. But one thing they do ALL have in common, 90% of the time, is their trailing arm is down, allowing their shoulders to stay on a more level attitude, allowing them to stay stacked, balance, and over the sweet spot of the ski!! (for new school style skiers, the shoulders are level relitive to the water; where more traditionaly stye skiers, shoulders seem to be level relitive to the ski.

The first thing you have to understand what is happening with the body before you can make a long term, habit breaking change on the water.

Second, make sure your head is upright and level too. If your head is falling toward the boat on the way into the buoy, you will have a hell of a time trying to level out your shoulders, probably making things worse, not better!

Remember. Skiing should be done with the lower body. Our upper body is simply for balanced.

[Tom Henderson]

"The first thing you have to understand what is happening with the body before you can make a long term, habit breaking change on the water." - Adam

 

 

 

 

 

 

I certainly see both sides of the situation here. If you are efficiently leading your turns with your CoM with your palm is turned down and it is incredibly awkward for you to turn your palm up, then I wouldn't really suggest turning your palm up. (at least for the time being)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I have witnessed many of times simply turning their palm up brings a whole bunch of other things into alignment and has significantly, no vastly improved their turns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Try this little drill. Imagine for a second that you are at 45 off ( yea the rope is going to stop 7.5' inside of the buoy). Since the rope is such a short length you are going to have to be fully extended. Now stand up in your slalom stance in front of a mirror, stand up tall and reach as high as you can so you are fully extended (you are now standing on a vertical plan, but imagine yourself on the water parallel to the water) and start to play with palm up, or palm down. Palm down would be facing away from you and palm up would be with your palm facing towards you. With your palm facing away from you, or "down" you can see this creating some rotation (translates into your CoM falling back, ie not leading through your turn). While with your palm facing towards you or "up" you can see the start of counter rotation (translating to your inside hip coming forward). Obviously this is an extreme example, as I think it is physically impossible for me to get around a buoy at 45 off, but you can start to see the biomechanics of both of these handle placements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If placing your handle up is a major set back there may be something else going on in the equation. Try getting some video of yourself so you can actually see what is going on on your body, or try visiting a ski school where pros can watch you piece each piece of the puzzle in for you. One week skiing with a pro can help your skiing more than an entire season of chasing buoys.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adam - Im bottling my Imperial Stout today, so you should stop drinking your PRB crap, hop onto a plane and come check out the SLC. Next on the list is a double IPA. Love beer, love skiing, Love Life - Tom

[Horton]

you can click edit and then then add "returns"

The assume you are writting in word.... when you do that you have to clean up after you post.

[Horton]

Ok everybody. He have hit on a subject where you guys are writting a lot. If you write in MS Word and then paste you will generally have to go back and fix your paragraphs. Sometimes when you write on the page your paragraphs will get lost.

Please, after you hit "Add Your Commets", click edit at the top right of your post and fix your paragraphs. When you go back in your format edits will stick.   I always fix my parapraphs when I am done. Now iff i could lurn to Spel and tipe

[miski]

I found the handle position (palm orientation) made a big difference before. In my initial reach/stretch/counter, I was holding the handle vertically (palm forward), then right when comited to the apex w/ last bit of counter I went palm up - same time as trying to slide my hips and sit on the ball....    My shoulders/hips and handle all were in the same motion/rotation right at the ball.

It was probably the best day I've ever had skiing and wish I could get that feeling going again.

[Adam Caldwell]

Double IPA... !!!!  Awesome! 

 Good post TH. 

But edit your sh!t, Horton is getting his panites in a bunch!

[Adam Caldwell]

miski,

Like Tom suggested...check out some video of yourself. 

 9 times out of 10 the problem you are trying to remedy is becuase of something happening WAY before the actuall problem occurs.

 Action/Reaction , Cause/effect.

 

[miski]

Adam - Bruce's article and this whole discussion is all about what I don't have going on... I have a lot to gain by figuring out these moves from the wake to buoy line. Like you said, it's all so connected though - I've worked on body position and not overloading going to the wake, but it's hard to be in good position for this if you don't have this part right getting out to the ball...   Thx.

[Steven]

Thanks guys for your in put. I skied yesterday and tried to get the handle to a vertical position. I know I was doing it (effectively) during the turn in for the gates. I think I was doing pretty well in the course too! Although, I was only at 22 and 28. This was only my second day back on the water so I was trying to get some reasonable form going. I did notice that I was (in the beginning) reaching forward and down. I was able to fix that and start pushing my hip forward into the turn and cross course at the finish. Boy, what a difference skiing from your hips (COM) makes! I DO need to break out the video camera! Thanks again

[Boody]

I also have a bad habit of rotating my hand palm down during my off side reach.  I have been trying to correct it for years, but its very difficult.  I can see the handle rotate over in the corner of my eye every now and then and think "Man, why do I do that?" 

I am glad Bruce doesn't get too excited over this.  I had a great season last year by focusing on one thing, moving my mass, after reading one of Bruce's articles.  Hopefully this year I can include handle control.

But I am not going to get twisted up on how many degrees to rotate my my hand.  I don't want to feel like a robot out there.

[Tom Henderson]

I skied with my palm down up until last summer, where I finally changed it. With that said I had the most efficient onside turns of my life last year, and they ended up being a lot more fun for myself and for my body. For me, the early season training is where to change some of your bad habits and implement some of the new ideas that have been rushing through your head throughout the winter. I usually ski the best technically in the early season, but once the tournament come along Im always trying to get around that next stupid buoy. Enjoy the skiing guys. I officially have two months to get into the best shape of my life, let the count down begin.

[Thomas Wayne]

Check out older footage of Deena Mapple (post Andy hookup) if you want to see palm-up/palm-down control.  She would roll her palm-down hand over in a very dynamic fashion as she extended it out (and the reverse on retraction), and I'm pretty damn sure that wasn't an accident.

 TW

[Adam Caldwell]

Going extreme with it is great if you have plenty of time, relaxed and can think, which for many of us is out of the question. 

 For LFFs with Left Palm Down, Right Palm Up on the hanlde, I feel that if you get you palm to even face the shore on 1, 3, 5, and keep your palm facing the sky at all on 2,4,6 then that is adequate, to get desired effect.

 For me I had a really hard time letting the ski do the work during this extension movement.  I would alwasy try to use my feel to push the ski and slam the turn prematurely.  As I started to Extend and Retract at an equal rate, and keep my legs relaxed, and moving my hips (keeping them up/moving foreward) to let the ski do the work and finish the turn, I would be in a much better position at the finish.  Which gave me time to get settled into a good balance preload before the boat kicked my butt and pulled me up.  This gave me the time I needed on the other side of the wake to think about all this palm up stuff.  But even to this day, if I drive with me legs at all in the turn, I end up loading the rope right at the buoy line.  Not so fun.

 If anyone is up for a good DRILL to practice this, (who the hell does drills in slalom???)  But get SIX of thoes huge beach balls, or the yoga ballance balls, (like the 3ft diameter ones) and go replace your turn buoys with them.  See if that doesnt help you to keep you palm, inside shoulder and hips up in the turn.  Not to mention, this is pretty damn fun too.

 

[Steven]

As Boody stated, I'm glad that Bruce wasn't excited about the palm thing. The thing that helps me the most is trying to lead my movements with the hips. Kind of like pointing with your hip in the direction you want to go. As for overloading at the buoy, if I can resist the urge to push with my legs and think about counter rotating, then try to stay  in that open position until I ski back to the handle in conjunction with pushing my hips cross course, I get a real soft/short hook up right at the wakes that sends you on a real nice line to the next buoy. 

P/S Boody, have you had a chance to try your E-Series yet?

[mike55]

bruce butterfield's archived article is the absolute "kiss" principle for a 15/22 off skier like myself. (keep it sesame street :) Loved it! Thanks John. Lots of great stuff here. Butterfield has an incredible teaching ability that I liken to the Drew Ross video. TW mentioned Deena Mapple. She is in that video. Even a blind squirrel like me finds a nut now and then. All you have to do is forage around these boards. A real library of good stuff. Especially after being away for a while. Went by the name rookie. Seems lame. Anyway great group here. Regards to all.

[Boody]

Steve, I am tracking with you on 100%.  My "main" focus is to keep my mass moving in the direction I want to go, this concept alone gives me good results.  But of course I want to make it better so I am constantly toying with other concepts, but the "mass" concept is one that is proven in my mind.

Most mediocre skiers are too far back on the ski, so the ski is never really able to do the work like it should.  If your mass is leading, there should be no way you can go back on the ski, accross the wakes, into the turn and out of the turn, you will always be over your ski.

Still playing around with the handle control. 

Regarding the E-series, they are a winner.  While I only have 8-10 sets behind them, they are working well.  Do they perform better than my regular FMs?  Not really, about the same, even though they are lighter, no obvious improvement in performance.  Hopefully they will contribute to taking me further in the long run. 

[Steven]

Ya, I've got about 10 sets in this year too. On my first few sets I was in safety mode (rear end back and reaching forward) but after I realized what I was doing, everything came back. What really helps me is to push my hip forward into the turn in conjunction with the reach. Then all I have to do is keep from reaching for the handle and I'm off to the races. Also if you can master these movements, it sure takes the strain off your back!

 Those E-Series look real nice, but it's hard for me to spend the extra money when mine are working so well. The idea of no maintenance and a lighter set up is real appealing though!

[RichardDoane]

An example of a serious lack of handle control.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kPZcEgDidg

[Steven]

What the heck happened to you? You looked great at the start! Ouch!!!!!

[RichardDoane]

I was being lazy with my grip, and the handle got away, turning me into a BOS !