The Future of Ski boats.....

[Horton]

Replace the words Ford Mustang with ProStar 197...

http://www.greencar.com/features/ronaele/

[Old MS Accout]

we cant sell boats for 38k, who is going to pay 125K? Aint gonna happen and I dont care if Al Gore buys Master Craft.

[Horton]

MS,

You need vision.

[Horton]

http://www.rsportscars.com/dodge/2009-dodge-ev-concept/

[Old MS Accout]

I have vision. I just dont have a wallet to match your vision.

We will need a whole new group of Promo guys to afford those.

[lkb]

come on MS, you could buy one and I'll store it in my boathouse for you...i'll keep it charged for free

[Horton]

The day is going to come. It is only a matter of time. Not this year but you watch....

[Horton]

I asked a big shot at MasterCraft about that last year and he said slightly smaller boats are not worth the trouble. I think the one issue is that to get appoved the boats have to be able to pull jump. That and hard core skiers are not really a profit point.

[skibug]

Our egos will get in the way of smaller engines and electric boats....more power, more speed...you can always go slower/throttle back, if it isn't there you can't use it.

[Thomas Wayne]

This may very well be a viable solution.  Testing has indicated that a much smaller engine can produce plenty of pull with this twin-prop modification.  The inventor - it's patent pending - intends for it to be an after-market add-on, as well as OEM option.

 TW

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n293/ThomasWayne_2006/twinscrewMC.jpg

[skibug]

Now that looks like a cool idea.  It also looks like you need to be careful pulling it on the trailer.......

[Guest]

Bling sells. Having a tower,(I don't care for), wedge, heater, shower, stereo, bimini, and a few other creature comforts sure help open up the market for resale. I don't see the need for a Hybrid either. The low drag hull on my Malibu RLXI gets great fuel economy. I burn about 2 gallons per hour running at 55K. Two 6 pass sets per gallon.

[Old MS Accout]

Good ole combustion engine power will be the staple for the next 10 years at least, so dont go electing Gore until we see them proven and affordable. Maybe the 60-100k wakeboard boat buying crowd can afford, but not a bunch of tight wad, crusty old slalom skiers. Burn that coal and fire up thos cylinders cause its getting down to -5 again tonight. Those electric power engines will need lots of coal burning to be able to meet the charging demands of the world. The more chargable engines the world produces, the more coal we need to burn. The more coal we burn, the longer my ski season gets.

[auskier]

an EV ski boat would be the coolest boat ever and it makes perfect sense for what we do!

electric motors by nature have 100% torque from 0rpm and work better at higher rpm's than our gas consuming lumps of steel. sounds like they would work pretty well for jump to me.. Electric motors doesnt automatically relate to being slow. Seen the tesla roadster?

Speed control systems would have it easy, it would be easier to control amps into an electric motor than rpm in a internal combustion engine. EV's are whisper quiet. how many complaints regarding skiing are noise related??? an electric motor in a large enough size to run a ski boat would be half the size of a v8. it would enable drastic changes to interior and layouts in ski boats. batteries can go anywhere in the boat so it will help with tracking and hull efficiency. So it could mean no fuel tank in the rear locker and half the size of the engine hatch. From the article - "With an estimated running cost of 2cents per mile"... so maybe a quarter per set in 'gas' cost should cover it... add a few solar panels to the boat house roof and it wont cost you a penny!

 

and best of all... you can teak surf all day without sucking in all that CO and whatever else is in exhaust

[JAYK]

 GARBAGE IS THE FUTURE!!!!

 

The Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor converts household waste to power the time machine's flux capacitor and time circuits using nuclear fusion (specifically cold fusion.)  Mr. Fusion allows the DeLorean time machine to generate the required 1.21 gigawatts needed to travel to any point in time. The energy produced by Mr. Fusion replaces plutonium as the primary power source of the DeLorean's time travel and flight capabilities, allowing the characters to bypass the arduous power-generation requirements that the plot of the first film hinged upon. It is never mentioned what Doc Brown did with the remaining plutonium, or if he used it all during unseen trips after he leaves Marty near the end of Back to the Future part one.

http://www.bttfblog.com/images/back_to_the_future_delorean_for_sale/delorean_time_machine_rear2.jpg

[Horton]

Could I use a LeeSki as fuel?

[scoke]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/Chain_reaction_ver1.jpg/200px-

Watch out Jay, the Gubment/Arabs/Oil Execs killed the last guys who thought outside the box.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chain_reaction_ver1.jpg http://shopping.yahoo.com/video/images/muze/dvd/sm/47/754947.jpg

[Horton]

Did they kill Keanu Reeves? How bad could that be? Did you see the second and third Matrix movies? That was a few years ago and I am still mad about how bad they were.

[Guest]

Was there a third Matrix movie? One after Matrix ReLoaded? I missed it.......... dangit! Mr. Anderson is my hero.....or Neo.

[DaveD]

Not that I don't enjoy a good Matrix rant, but I'm going to re-hyjack this thread.

Wouldn't a hybred system be more applicable to our uses?  With them already being common in automotive applications, there would be less development required by the boat companies.  I'm wondering if a small motor with a few batteries and a smaller gas tank would actually be a overall weight savings. 

John, are you going to line up an interview with one of the boat company execs?  It would sure be nice to see if they are thinking about stuff like this. 

[Horton]

Dave,

I am humbled that you are putting a thread back on topic. Thank you.

A boat company exec interview is on the to-do list.

[lkb]

i'll take it back off topic. Keanu does suck. His dad must own the studio.

[roda]

No one has mentioned the ability of an electric boat to run on lakes/reservoirs that have a gas motor restriction. I'm also sure the homeowner that is about 150' from where we pick up on one end would appreciate an electric for those 6:30am sets. I've seen some home jet-ski conversions, anyone have a '94 MC w/ a blown motor to use as a test bed?

[DW]

I certainly think it is a great idea to try to update what powers our vehicles.  The big issue with changing over to some other power source will be cost.  Besides the R&D requirements to develop a reliable electric propelled boat will certainly take time, effort and money.  The current GM small block that powers pretty much the entire tourney and wakeboard boat industry is actually pretty darn cheap.  Along with all that cheap gasolene that JTH provides us with, it is a tall order to push through a changeover.  Not that I am implying that we should not consider it or try it, but I certainly don't think there is a good business case for it at this time.  We won't change until gas prices get to roughly $5/gal. in my estimate.  Heck, the F150 and the Silverado are going to be the top two selling vehicles in the USA this year even after a major gas price scare.

There are several electric car clubs in the US, my brother-in-law has attended some meetings in Seattle.  There should certainly be some relatively cheap mule boats available on the market for someone who wants to try, a 91-95 MC 190 would make a great test boat and a pretty cool project.

[Deke]

Sure there's RD to change over but most of it would be adapting the boat itself.  Electric motors of the size needed for boats have been powering industrial equipment forever.  And with the new technology in batteries (10 minute recharge) it is perfect for tournament lakes.  Public water would still be a challenge though.  Seems like most of the complexity in autos is in extending the range through regenerative braking and efficient chassis and body designs.  Boats as we know them would not benefit from this so the application would seem to be relatively straight forward.

 Why not a re-power package?

[Old MS Accout]

In the end it is going to come down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

You cant sell boats for 40k so how will they sell. We know one thing, they will not be any cheaper.

[KG]

Does anyone have a realistic cost for a system like this if you don't include labor for installation? I have a 99 Malibu sportster (maybe the lightest DD ever made) and there is a lake very close to my house that I can't use because the city says "no power boats" because the water is part of the drinker water for the city.

[Old MS Accout]

Lighter may not be better. You need a solid boat with some train track rails. Even with a lot of power, I would think a guy like skidawg could pull you right out of the course. Maybe a new hull design with a light weight moter would work better then the hull that pulls around the heavy engines now.

The city lakes in Minnesota that are non-gas powered are designed that way so it is no wake, not noise. The leftys will figure a way to shut you down if you are having too much fun.    

[miski]

Some thoughts to add: 

> All-electric or hybrid-eclectic might not be efficient or even feasible for a ski-boat duty cycle - don't have numbers, but the thrust required is pretty high at 30-40mph on current boats, so there is no low-thrust part of the cycle to switch over to electric.

> Steady-state thrust (no accel) vs. speed is opposite trend between auto and boats - hull drag goes down w/ speed for boats, aero drag goes up with speed for cars - the boat speeds we're talking about are slow enough aero is small

> Little or no regen potential in a boat - or at least not compared to an auto - hull drag already slows boat very quickly once power is cut

> Accel from stop is highest energy requirement - same for both autos and boats - weight/inertia is big component for both, but hull-drag is huge below planing speed 

> Reducing hull-drag and lowering planing speed seems to be lowest hanging fruit for a ski boat - less weight, more planing surface would help here

> Tracking required for slalom would be challenge w/ less weight and more hull surface - could this be accomplished with skegs w/o adding back a lot of drag

> Tunnel boats reduce hull drag with aero lift - my first ski boat was a tunnel hull w/ outboard - with pylon, it tracked very well and wake was about 2ft x 5" pile of foam that you barely noticed

> Weight is king - power/weight of IC engine and fuel storage has yet to be beat - even best batteries and electric motors are heavier - w/ latest technology like direct injection, and advanced engine controls, energy and carbon efficiency is really low - the only reason auto industry green direction is required is due to number of vehicles and time in use which is probably 2-3 maybe 4 orders of magnitude greater than boats? 

Oh yeh - happy new years!

[Old MS Accout]

Is Lefty offensive? Is righty offensive? You are who you are and it is what it is. I dont make up the lingo, I just use it. In Minn we are a BLUE, commie, lefty, socicalist and liberal state. There are no rightys to shut fun down. This is the land of Tombstone I mean Wellstone. Now back to the boats, It all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and none of the big 3 have any of that right now and neither do the buying public. And if they had any money, they would not spend it on a dying slalom boat market. It will make a 80k wakeboard boat cost 120k.

I dont like to be all doom and gloom but reality has to make its forefront.

[DW]

I minor technical issue, which might not be quite so minor when you are the soaking wet person standing in the boat, is electrical shock.  The electrical power needed will probably require a battery that has an output that won't be human (wet) freindly.  We all probably want that one solved before hopping in the boat!

[thager]

The person posting as MS in the thread above is obviously an imposter! This person provides solid argument without offending and is able to link groups of thoughts in a clear and concise manner. The final clue is that this person can spell!!!! What have you done with my friend you rounder????

P.S. No ransome greater than $1.00 will be paid for his return. /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif  

 

[roda]

Hey DW, most recreational submarines are electric so there is at least one group we could borrow water resistant (or at least protected) electric technology from.

 http://www.uboatworx.com/flash/index.html

[DW]

That's cool.  I had a friend who built a sub, I don't remember what powered it.

[Guest]

If you are thinking about noise reduction......that's good.

If you are thinking about cheaper, more readily available fuel......that's good.

If you are thinking about the ecology........trade off. (less emissions but battery disposal is not good)

If you are thinking about price......not good.

If you are thinking about weight.....not good.

If you are thinking outside the box.....good.

The greeness of this hybrid type ski rig isn't looking good.

Propane would be better.

[Horton]

There is an old story that someone took the exhaust tubes and extended them 5 feet longer so they hung way behind the boat. The boat was then super quite. True story? Not sure. 

[skidawg]

No one mentioned that  40$ barrell oil equals 1.41/gal gas.  No need for alternative fuels now Ubama backers.

[roberto]

Maybe mass boat skiing will fade away and become exclusive to a few with the private faciliites and were with all to do it?

In euro land 'cable skiing' is popular, is this the future? Apologies, I know the title is the future of ski boats, but it raises the question on the future of skiing? Some out of the box thinking on cable/monorail design might be worth considering, specific to slalom. I do accept it is not quite as portable as a boat, but it might perpetuate the sport rather than die through cost/legislation. This would bring the sport closer to high population densities, were it could meet the criteria of the environment. For example, Princes and Thorpe Park near London both run cables and Boats.

[auskier]

and oil will remain below 50 bucks a barrel forever skidawg? the lack of foresight and poor fuel economy of detroits vehicles helped contribute to the mess they are in when oil jumped. if trends dont start to change, things will only be worse next time..

[Horton]

The conspiracy theory goes something like this:

Every time the price of oil gets out of control western countries start getting serious about non-OPEC sources of fuel. Remember during the election everyone was screaming to “Drill Here –Drill Now”?  While OPEC is raking in the cash, anyone working on hybrids, bio-fuels, oil shale, wind or solar looked like a genius.

As soon as the sheiks think we are serious about getting off middle eastern oil they open the flood gates and the price of oil crashes. Without the pain of high oil prices all the cutting edge technologies are forgotten. We are so stupid that we do it every time.

 Our current oil prices are actually based on lower consumption but oil prices are really manipulated by OPEC.  

[skibug]

Oil prices are driven by OPEC; but, a larger factor on gasoline prices are the US refinery capabilities and those are the crooks who set the price!!!  I have a very good freind that owns a large gas station company in Chicago, he tells me they are worse than snake oil salesmen.

[DW]

I don't think throwing the Detroit three under the bus is justified.  If you look across each segment, several of the Detroit three actually outperform the European or Asian competitors.  GM actually makes more vehicles that get over 30 mpg than any other manufacturer.  In addition, Toyota and Nissan have invested significantly in big pickup trucks thinking that they could enter that lucrative market.  You need to realize a manufacturer only builds what customers want, that is what drives the market.  In the USA, due to inexpensive fuel, large vehicles were in high demand and now are back in demand.  In Europe, with higher fuel prices, displacement taxes and more confined spaces drove the need for smaller vehicles.  More properly stated, a fuel price spike caused people to reconsider what type of vehicle they needed or actually wanted.  The USA has long passed the plateau of purchasing what is needed and moved to purchasing what is wanted, hence a huge lifestyle and leisure industry.  Nobody needs an Escalade (Cadillac SUV) but GM could not build enough to meet demand for a long time or a $50k ski boat for that matter.  The Russian economy is moving to where they are purchasing many a luxury item, Hummer's are huge sellers in Russia.

What propels our vehicles will be determined by supply and demand.  While oil is in large supply and cheap, it will be the leader for what ends up being used as the fuel for propulsion.  This battle played out about 100 years ago, steam v. electricity v. IC engines.  The IC engine won that battle because it was more efficient at that time and currently still is.  Not to say it won't change because it certainly looks like it will.

[Horton]

skibug,

I work for Chevron and I just do not think that is true. Once the oil gets to US shores "supply and demand" rule the price of fuel. We need more refinerys but they are not at fault. In that case blame the fed and the greens.

[Old MS Accout]

Quit labeling people greens and feds

[Horton]

How about Albino, Norwegain- Freak

[lkb]

c'mon Brent...let 'em go at it...we need some excitement....it'll help the winter go by faster

[Old MS Accout]

Dont insult me by labeling me a Norwegian. I am 100% Kraut.

Brent,

Save the card cause I am sure I will need it.

[miski]

Nice post DW - right on. Unfortunately if you build/sell sub-par stuff for 15 years, it apparently takes at least that long to get your customers back. I did find out the other day that Toyota scrapped there 1/2 done US Prius plant not so much because of declining demand, but becasue new plug-in electrics and next-gen hybrids from US manufactures will obsolete that vehicle...

Also think the idea of a monorail slalom course would be cool - you could automate it and then be able to ski by yourself instead of waiting for someone to pull you. I have been thinking underwater for awhile, but an overhead version could have the optical/video stuff built in... Could add surfaces to generate wake, but if we're talking save energy - you'd have to go w/o the wake :)

[scoke]

 

You guys are crazy. After Keanu survived the OPEC and Big OIl Record Profits hired assassins he fled the country. He hid out with his technology in a place where nobody thought they would find him, Siberia.

As he was dying from liver failure, the potato vodka is killer, he passed the information to a scientist in Russia.

 The evil monolopizing dictator was trying to oppress new technologies as he owned the stake in the oil industries.

Thankfully SImon Templar saved the day. Next week I am getting my cold fusion ski boat.

http://www.saint.org/blog/uploaded_images/the-saint-1997-movie-poster-757758.jpg

[Horton]

You guys worry me in the winter months