A-1 COLDWATER QUESTION

[EF]

John, I noticed on the A-1 all you did was go with 9 thousands less depth. I'm curious what you'd recommend for water in the 50-60 range. I keep increasing DFT, which is what I think I should be doing to keep my radius tight? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!!   

[jpski]

EF

Honestly all ive ever done for cold water was added some wing angle

JP

[Jim Neely]

Our water has droped from 80 degrees to 70. The water feels very slow (difficult to get wide). I was thinking of reducing the wing angle to compensate. Is that the wrong strategy?

[Roger]

That's odd; in my experience, when the water gets colder, it feels faster.

[JAYK]

I'll second that notion! Our water temps at the highest are maybe mid 70's and the lowest low 50's in the spring and late fall. The water is always faster feeling as it gets colder. Just got back from Florida and let me tell you that water is SLOW compared to what we ski on here or were skiing on here.

Jim you say you can't get as wide now that the water is colder, we seem to find that also, we usually add depth to the fin to compensate for the temp change which helps in the width department, but we usually don't start messing with that till were below 60 in water temp.

[Horton]

Typically I am not a proponent of cold water #s vs warm water #s. It is getting colder here in Bako and I am skiing like crap because I am cold. Like Jim, I am narrow but I am pretty sure that is because my handle control and strength are down in the cold. I was out running back to back 35s last night and was really struggling to be as smooth as I wanted.  A couple of times I pulled my head out and ran some nice passes but it took more concentration then normal.  Drop another 10 degrees and my knees are going to get stiffer and my strength is going to drop a tiny bit more.

All that said there is a change as the water gets cold but if you chase every 5 degrees you are never going to find your settings. On some skis I think DFT is very critical and would not move it for temp changes. Depth and length are generally more forgiving to change. When it gets really cold I tend to wheelie so I would be temped to take out depth but I believe that I wheelie because of the icicle in my rectum.

So what I am saying is, add some wing if you want but generally if the ski works very well in the warn it should be close enough for cold water skiing. The problem is generally the skier.  

[Jim Neely]

I probably made a bad assumption about why I was struggling to get wide. I'll try again tomorrow. It may just be my old joints.

[RichardDoane]

The water temp @ Ski Park this week was 54', and headed down!

[tjm]

I find it to be too much brain damage trying to adjust my ski as the water gets cold.   What I do instead is just slow the boat down a bit.  It gives me more margin for error as the water, along with my muscles and joints, gets cold.

[tsixam]

Cold water is harder than warm water. In warm/soft water the skis plane angle is steeper as its tail is sitting deeper in the water. A simple way to restore the plane angle is to move the fin backward. The opposite is true for cold/hard water. If you take a look at your ski when you are skiing in a neutral position behind the boat you will see that the point where the water breaks changes with water temperature. In cold/hard water it will break more to the back of your front foot as the back of the ski sits higher and in warm/soft water more towards your front toes.

 Of course our performance will change as well, as the temperature get colder. But it is possible to restore some of the performance by adding DFT, at least if you ski on an old Sixam.

Tsixam

[Director Darwin]

John - I believe water temp (and the related viscosity) play a MAJOR role in the performance of a ski.  Our water fluctuates 30+ degrees from spring to summer to fall.  Hydrodynamic changes occur in even small temperature fluctuations.  The impact those changes have on our skis may not be significant enough to merit changes for every 5 degrees in variation but over the term of a season, I firmly believe that fin/binding adjustments are necessary.

jhd

[Horton]

Joe,

You are right. I just tend to try to look at the skier first and then keep tweeks as small as possible. I am against the idea that there is a formula for warm vs cold water skiiing.

[Director Darwin]

John - I think we are on the same page.  I don't buy that there is a "pure" formula for cold/warm water just as there is no formula for "slow" or "fast" water.  I tend to subscribe to the theory that water is water and the buoys are all in the same place site to site (or should be!).  It is much easier to make small adjustments in skiing style than to search for the right fin number combination.  That said, I do notice a difference in the way my ski(s) perform in April/May and Sept/Oct vs. the heat of summer.  I'm not certain that any "tweaks" exist that would level the performance playing field but I'm always open to suggestions - particularly this time of year.

[JAYK]

From my expierience I can see the point of view of adjustments not needed basing that on a certain temp range. For me the setting work perfectly fine from water temps in a range form 60 deg up to the bathtub warm water of Florida, but as soon as the temps hit the low 50's and high 40's when were dumb enough to ski, there is a definite difference in the way the ski reacts. I don' think that anything dropping into the 60 deg range is needed of a fin adjustment.

what's your guys' coldest temps of the lakes you ski on?

And I am sure Mr.Schnitz would have an opinion in all of this!

[tsixam]

From 32f to 80f  

Tsixam

[Horton]

TSixam,

if you are really skiing from 32 F to 80 F maybe you should take some time off in the winter. I don't care how good your adjustment is, if you are cold as hell you will ski like hell.

I hate to admit this but I think maybe a cold water ski and a warm water ski is a better idea then adjustments.....

[JAYK]

I agree wiht that statement about cold water ski and a warm water ski, up here in the arctic circle you lewt one of those carbon bad boys get a little sun on them on a cold day and it reacts different. I know the coach I usually go to in Florida has told me I should use a softer ski because of the colder temps. Must be something to it.

[tsixam]

We take some time off. Our season runs from late March to early October. Nowadays we usually start as soon as the ice is gone, in dry suits of course. Back in the good old days we started even earlier, sometimes we had to take a few runs with the boat up and down the course to get rid of the thin ice from the night, but I am smarter now.  

I usually ski pretty well in the spring when the water is cold, but then as it warms up I have to move my fin backwards to keep skiing well. The idea of having a cold water ski and a warm water ski has not struck me before. It might be a good idea!

 

Tsixam

[RichardDoane]

My RS-1 is pretty soft, so it still works well when the water temps drops. The lake water usually gets to about the mid 40's in winter. Well layered in a drysuit, my score in the winter is about the same as in the summer. Bag drysuits do a good job of helping the deceleration needed for the faster, colder water. I have never changed fin settings for the winter. The trick to skiing all winter is the wind-breaking top on the boat, and a heater that's working well. I couldn't imaging not skiing in the winter months.

[tsixam]

I think that the reason for being narrow in cold water is because the ski is slower! It might sound like a contradiction to what most people feel when they are skiing.  

When the water is cold the ski sits higher in the water and don´t have the same grip as in warm water. So when you are leaning away from the boat you can´t keep the cross course direction as well as in warm water. You have more slip. You ski more straight to the ball and it feels like you are skiing faster, but in reality it is the more straight line that makes the balls come faster. In warm water you have more grips and have more of a 90 degree path behind the boat. You ski much faster to the other side but have much more time to bleed the speed and set the turn up and it feels like you are skiing much slower. I try to compensate some of this by adding or taking away DFT.  

From warm to cold water: When I feel that I am close to OTF at the ball or get to much tension on the line I move my fin forward. From cold to warm water: When I feel that I can’t keep the angle or when the tip of the ski is too high at the end of the turn, I move the fin back.

 

I adjust from about 0,756 to 0,728, and I make the change when the water is 60F or above.

Tsixam

[RichardDoane]

Wouldn't it be the density of the water that would make it feel faster ? Any Chemistry Majors out there ?

[tsixam]

You are right.  Cold water has higher density than warm water. Warm water is softer and the ski sits deeper than in cold water. Cold/hard water has more slip and it is harder to keep cross course angle. I think cold water is faster (more glide) than warm water but I think the main problem for water skiers is the slip problem.

Tsixam

[Director Darwin]

So - am i correct in saying as the water cools, move the fin forward / as it warms move it backward?

[Old MS Accout]

That was the MO with my Monza. So far with the A1, I have not had to move it and we are well under 60f for water temps.

[tsixam]

Yes, you are right. That’s what I do and it’s working for me.

Tsixam

[EF]

MS, I've been told the A-1 is slower than the Monza. What are your thoughts on that? I'm on the A-1 now and I think it's by far the best ski I've had! This person tells me it's a 36mph ski, and for 34mph you have to generate more speed. I really don't understand that, could someone please explain????

[Old MS Accout]

I thought that the Monza was the fastest ski I ever rode. I dont feel exausted when I ride the A1 but it does not seam as fast. I am at the ball every bit as early as I was on the Monza and I feel more stable. I can ride most skis to my average or better but the thing I like most about the Sauce is that no matter what I do on my off side I cant blow out the tail on this ski. It is always there under you.    

[EF]

MS,

I agree with you completely! I'm also as early as I've ever been, and I keep getting more and more confidence on this thing because it never blows out. Not to mention it seams to build angle and maintain it like nothing else.

Also, can anyone explain why you have to generate more speed at 34 than 36?? "At least that's what I'm being told by great skiers at my lake"

[Old MS Accout]

Technical engenieer I am not and I cant spell but That is why I believe that running 41 at 34 is much harder then at 36. Not that I could even run 41 at 36 or 34 but It is very hard to believe that no one has run 41. I have seen 39 run a zillion times at BDs and I have yet to see someone get by 3 ball. I think that the wider range of speed needed from ball to ball at 34 is greater then at 36. I think at 36 you can just stay moving fast but at 34 you have a tendancy to not be skiing as fast and must generate a bit more speed fluxuation as a result.

Keep your maximum speed needed to its minumum point and keep your minimum speed at its maximum point. By doing that, your speed fluxuation will not be as great.

Or maybe the 55k guys just dont have the talant of the pros.       

[Roger]

One of the problems with 41 at 34 is the timing of peak width. You are only going to be at peak width for a split second and it had better be the split second that is at the ball. Getting wide too early is just as bad as too late at that speed and length.

Andy ran it and 3.5 at 43 in a C at Charleston a few years ago and Lucky ran it at a cash prize event (also a C) in Georgia a couple of years ago (did not get around the one ball at 43 though).

Evidence would seem to support your theory that it's more difficult at 34. Both speeds with that line length seem impossible to me (PB is 4 @ 38). For kicks at the end of one of my practice sets, I shortened to 41 and just tried the gate. I tried for maximum angle and changed edges a quickly as possible as this is what a skier that gets into 41 suggested. I turned about 1.5 to 2 feet inside the one ball. Very illuminating...

 

[scoke]

 

 

Great thread and info.

 

Favorite part of this thread, MS "Technical engenieer I am not and I cant spell ". hilarious.

[Thomas Wayne]

Excerpted from W.E.B. Griffin's
MEN AT WAR:

"Last Weak I Cudn't Even Spell 'Enginnear' And Now I Are One."

 

WT

[skidawg]

41 @ 34 it  is very difficult to maintain speed at the bouy.  You can get out there with plenty of speed but you lose it extremely fast.  It is also hard to change edge as early as you need to and keep the speed.  Ask Clay,  he is the only one i know that has been to 4 ball several times at a tourney.

[Chef23]

I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way because I am not that good a skier.

 Aren't the best skiers in the world skiing at 36 mph in open events.  I understand there are some phenomenal skiers skiing in Big Dawg and other events at 34 mph but the world's best are skiing at 36 mph.  It makes sense to me that if only a handful of pros have made 41 off in tournaments that there would be fewer people (at this point it sounds like 2 and never in a record event) that have run 41 off at 34 mph.

I can't comment on whether it is easier because you have more speed at 36 mph.  It sounds counter-intuitive to me that it would be easier at the faster speed but I am stuck at 32 off so what do I know.

[RichardDoane]

Chef23 - Don't think of it as "stuck" @ -32, be positive about "working" on the -32 pass.

[JAYK]

Hypothetically if the pro's skied 34, 41 would be going down a lot more, I just don't think the talent pool is there for the crop of skiers @ 34 right now. No disrespect to anyone, it's incredible enough to see 39 ran that much in tourneys!

[skidawg]

No doubt JB, Willy, and just about all the boys could run 41 at 34.  Andy did bf he retired in a class C at 34.  Lucky (i heard) use to run it in practice a few years ago at 34.  Can definately be done, just small margin of error and conditions must be right.

[Ham_Wallace]

I moved my A-1 fin back when the water cooled off. It is hammering turns. Went fom .770 to .746. went from 11 degrees to 10, 2.502. Should be about 6.79 tips