RS-1 boots Safety

[Horton]

Unfortunately I do scan all the forums at least once a week. Today, I saw the SkiFly thread that talks about Rossi and RS-1 boots. I do not post over there anymore so here is my response on the topic.

A few years ago I damaged my ankle in a skitec system.  I will never walk the same again. I limp every morning when I get out of bed. I will never run a mile again. If I trick, I cannot do toe tricks, line tricks or flips. There is no chance I will ever jump again. I guess I had the release set too tight, but with mechanical systems who can tell?  I am at fault.

The point is, I take binding safety pretty seriously. I think RS-1 boots are the best thing out there. As with any system if you over tighten them you will not come out in a fall. The same is true with every high end binding. If you have a brain in your head I believe that the RS-1 boots are the safest bindings made. Besides that I believe that I ski better in Radar boots.

I am sure that there is someone out there that is assuming that I am in Eddie and Herb’s back pocket. I have to tell you guys that all my best rides so far this year are on the new Connelly Prophecy. My point is that I believe in the RS-1 boots because I trust the design, not because I am brand loyal. End of story.

[scoke]

 

 

"If you have a brain in your head I believe that the RS-1 boots are the safest bindings made."

Better then Powershells? If so, why?

 

[Roger]

I agree, safest so far (though you can get hurt in anything).

My opinion on powershell differences:

1) RS-1 cannot pre-release. Any interloc system can and does (I've witnessed two myself, and a couple of weeks ago, a guy at our site using the FM system had a pre-release).

2) RS-1 allows for the very oblique forward exit. Interloc has a very high shear strength, the reason they added the springs on the rear was to get the tear started in this kind of fall (IMO).

This is what I really like about this system, it can and does let you out if the ski makes a sudden stop (like hitting a buoy or burying the tip), all other systems tend to be hardest to release in this type fall (possibly excluding the FM system).

For these reasons, at least with a double boot setup, I believe this is the safest system to date. I also am skiing very well, at least with perfect pass /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif

 

 

[Director Darwin]

Roger:  Even though I use a hybrid setup utilizing dual loc, I agree w/ your conclusions.  Dual loc is a FASTENER - not a release mechanism.  I use enough dual loc whereby the ski will not pre-release (has happened before) and probably will not release in an OTF fall.  There are many opinions regarding release /non-release.  I've had bad falls w/ both and (so far) have come out the other end in good shape.

That being said, it REALLY pains me to admit that the Reflex system (when set up properly) is the best releasable system I've seen.  I have experimented with all of the systems available including Radar, and the Reflex system provides the best combination of control and release function.  I'll continue to use my current setup this season but I'll be trying the Reflex system again this fall and will try the Radar system again in the future as the design improves.

[Director Darwin]

As a follow up to the Radar boot system, I had the opportunity to discuss the system w/ a few Pros at a recent tournament.  In fact, I was first off the dock behind the Open Men so I had the chance to talk to them about the boots and look at their setups.   When I saw how tight they pulled the cords (aftermarket - not stock), I inquired about release.  To a man, none thought they would come out of the boots when they tightened them enough to get the control they desired.  Therefore, to get the control they needed they had to tighten the cords to the point where releasing from them in a fall was questionable.  Again, I think the Radar RS-1's will continue to evolve and may become the standard one day.  I look forward to trying the next generation.

[Horton]

One more thing. The last time I really hurt my ankle was in Powershells. If you fall one way, they come off but if you fall another way they do not. In a slow forward fall I unhooked 2/3s of the Dual Lock. The last little bit at each end of the plate was left and I took a month off skiing.

Also safe binding set up should not require an engineering degree.

Joe,

Would the pros do the same thing with Fogmens or tape the whole bottom of a powershell plate or tighten thier drivers as hard as they could? Being a super high end skier and being smart may not go hand in hand.

[Horton]

Scoke,

If you are smart enough to know how tight to pull the laces they are very safe. If you crank them as tight as you can then "God Love Ya" and Good Luck.

[Roger]

I think the reflex system is ok if you are rear toe. However, it like all the other systems was not designed for waterskiing and the hardware degrades over time with use in water. Also, on the type fall I spoke of, hitting the buoy where you need to eject straight foward, the horseshoe designs have no give (like the elastic laces of the Radar) and you must start a rotation of the front foot for the release to begin. I think these designs are better than the Fogman in this regard, but not as good as the Radar.

As for wearing them very tight, I don't know. I saw Rossi put his on at our tourmament and he pulls them fairly tight, but there is some elasticity left when he's done. To me, it's about adjusting the volume in the shell so that you don't have to pull the laces all the way tight to get a really snug fit and still have the elasticity required for ejection. I wear 10.5" shoes and chose the size 11 shells. I use green superfeet to bring the volume up to where I need it.

Which pros are you speaking about that pulled them so tight they thought there would be no release?

All systems require a certain level of thought to use them correctly and safely.

 

[Director Darwin]

My comments regarding the Open skiers I observed was simply to illustrate your point - one must adjust the tension properly for the bindings to perform (and release) appropriately.  That's true with any binding system that has a release component - be it Radars or Powershells or whatever.  As I stated, I think the Radar system is on the right track.  In the past, we have all traded safety in exchange for performance.

[Boody]

I skied on the RS-1s for about one month and yes, if you wear them loose and they are safer, but not as safe as others.  Problem is, myself and many others don't ski well with loose bindings.  So your safety rests soley on how tight you happen to snug them down?  No thanks.  I can snug down my FMs as much as I want and there is very little risk of injury. 

I understand if some feel they perform well, but to argue they are safe is somewhat silly.  Regular rubber bindings are safer in my opinion.  My ski club primarily uses FMs and after four year with 8 skiers running them, I have not seen an injury yet. 

[ScarletArrow]

This isn't going to help the safety conversation for Radar.

Link

[ForrestGump]

Boody, if it's silly to say that the RS1s are safe, wouldn't it then be silly to infer that they aren't?  Same goes for the FMs. I've seen plenty of RS1 releases when the ski is stuffed at the ball. If you feel loose in them when the laces are just snugged, you almost have to have the incorrect size. I've also seen people get hurt when stuffing the ski with FMs because the FMs didn't release.  Now is that the fault of the binding or the fault of the person setting it up?

[Director Darwin]

Zgo - I agree that without proper set up and maintenance, any system can fail.  But comparing the FM's w/ a constant/repeatable release variable (via the dialed tension on the release spring) and the Radar system where the ski jerks on two cords until they "feel" the same each time, does not wash.  It is difficult to create the exact same release function with stretch cords.

As I've stated previously, I don't really have a dog in this fight.  I think the Radar design is on the right track but calling them "safe" or "safer" than any other system is totally reliant on the accuracy of the user.

[Justin]

Hey guy's, been reading this forum for a while now and just joined in. Lot's of valuable info and expertise to learn from. I recently picked up a new 68'' RS1 w/ RS1's to boot, no pun intended. Love the ski so far, huge difference for me over the MPD, more stable, faster, not so twitchy. The binders are also great, super comfy, no more foot cramps. I should mention though I had only a couple sets on them when I hit a ''roller'' at 4 ball and came out the front and did not release (rear heel was about half way out) and I bent the plate to a 90 degree angle under my back heel. Also tore the rear binding screws(under the heel) through the plate mounting holes. The plate remained attached to the ski screws and all but the rear binding was flopping around. I know the plate is supposed to flex independently, but it sure seems like alot of play/flex under the back binding, and about 9'' or so between the inserts. I'm not pumped about putting screws in my new ski so I am thinking of adding some dual lock under the rear plate to stop this from happening again, and not going as tight with the laces. Anybody had this issue yet? Any ideas on a fix?

 

[Horton]

Cleally we are not all going to agree in this. All I can say is that I am skiing the best of my life and totally trust the RS-1 boots.

[Roger]

Horton: "All I can say is that I am skiing the best of my life and totally trust the RS-1 boots. "

ditto

If properly worn, they will release. I've had three big falls since I got them. An out the front (buried tip) at the ball, both feet out. An out the front through the wakes, both feet in. A fall just under acceleration where I just kind of flopped around a bit, both feet in. EXACTLY WHAT I WANT FROM A BINDING SYSTEM!

If you tighten the laces to the point of no remaining elasticity, you may not release. I think what is happening here is that someone gets the system and finds their feet do not fill the volume enough to leave elasticity in the laces and just ski that way. I chose to add a set of superfeet to fill the volume to the point where I could wear mine a little past snug but with plenty of elasticity remaining in the laces. I believe this is key to the release.

As JD said, you can get hurt in any system, we are in a motion sport. However, no matter the system, you must use it properly. Maintian the release springs and tension on some; on this system, it's about wearing them at your chosen tightness, but keeping some elasticity left in the laces (IMO).

I've seen a Fogman pre-release, two Fogman's not release when they should have resulting in injury. A couple of weeks ago, we had a local skier pre-release in FM's and have a major yard sale. I've seen three pre-releases on the Goode system all with very violent falls. I KNOW I will release with the RS-1's as I have already proved that and I also KNOW I will not pre-release...

Still, it's a personal decision and judgment as to which system satisfies your performance vs. safety needs. I'm happy with mine.

Roger 

[PSM]

A friend of mine spoke to one of the designers of the RS-1 boots, and stated that the system was designed to have the laces run as loose as possible to maintain the safety as engineered.  He mentioed just "wrapping them around the hooks", and not even cinching the plastic clips down at all.  He said the performance and control comes from the lateral stiffness and fit of the boot, as opposed to the tightness of the laces.

Being a snow-skier, I was always one to run my bindings somewhat tight -- whether it was from the buckles on hardshells, or tight rubber from Wileys.  I liked the feeling of stiffness and support.  So the idea of running my RS-1's that loose was somewhat discomforting.  However, after about 2 weeks of skiing them this loose, my buoy count has maintained and my skiing feels fine.  There was definitely an adjustment period, but after a bad fracture in traditional hardshells, I was willing to give it a try for safety purporses.  Currently, I can no longer get my foot in and out of rubber boots due to the previous injury, and the other hardshells systems were'n't working for one reason or another, so the RS-1's seemed to be my only personal option at this point.

Grandted I haven't taken a bad fall yet to test the release (hopefully I don't have to), but so far the boots have worked for me.  Keep in mind when I say loose, I mean my boots are to a point where I can pull my foot (and liner) out standing on the dock without touching the ski.  Some may not be able to live with that feeling, but it seems to be working for me.

[Roger]

PSM, I don't know who your friend talked with, but I doubt it was one of the designers if they said that. Chris Rossi is one of the designers and I spoke with him at our Okeeheelee tournament a few weeks ago about this very thing as I was running my front just past snug and my rear loose. He recommended tightening past snug on both but leaving elasticity in the laces. The recommended tension on the laces is 35lbs, a far cry from "as loose as possible."

See this link for Radar's official instructions for the laces: http://www.radarskis.com/lace_instructions.pdf

Roger

 

[Justin]

I will try and get some pic's up of my plate. Once again I love the bindings, but I think the plate needs some improvement, not stiff enough. My fall was nothing out of the ordinary, and only a couple sets on them, and had significant damage on the plate. Someone else must have some experience with this happening.

[ForrestGump]

Justin, Was it the .125 thick plate with the R graphic or the thinner .100 plate? Have you talked to Eddie Roberts at Radar about it yet?

 Shane

[PSM]

Shoot me an email if you get minute, Roger.  Address is pls4ms (at) aol (dot) com.  Thanks.

[countymountie]

How do you know which plate you have?  Mine is the black - faux carbon fiber. What does the thicker plate look like, or do I have to pull out my caliper?  I noticed that mine was bending up approximately 1/2" in the rear.  Initially, I had both the rear screws tight and the small plate had movement.  I assume that the screws were slightly too long and tapped out allowing the small plate to freely slide around.   I added a couple of  washers which seemed to take away the slop. 

[scoke]

 

 

It's prolly toast, if not soon. Get a backup now so you're not dead in the water.

 My buddy bought a Senate. Loves the ski but the "flexing" plate that came with it, junk. he ripped it off after 2 weeks as he bent it, blew it out etc. Very poor design.

 When we saw the plate brand new, we were like, no way that's going to last. sure enough, toast.

 

[countymountie]

Another issue that I think compounds to my plate bending is when I compared my size 9's to a buddy's setup with his size 11's , I believe I am able to put more leverage onto the plate when I lift up my back heel being at a greater distance.   My friends 11's are much closer to the back mounting screws and he wouldn't be able to generate as much force.  BICBW, any physics majors want to chime in?

[Horton]

Hey you guys. Clearly some of the early plates bent. I had one of those and when I called Eddie he sent me the new plate. Since then there is NO bending. It works great.

[scoke]

 

Not sure what the defintion of early is. I bought the plate May 4th and they "Just got these in stock yesterday". Looks like they were making these until very recently.