Issues with STARGAZER

[slalomdude]

Well this week, got to test out my new Stargazer in my 2000 SN. There is obviously a software issue with it and we are back to skiing with it set to PP Classic. Slow times for first half and then the boat speeds up to give 16.95's. It works ok for lighter skiers, my buddy is 150 and his 22's and 28's were dead on, but when he got into 32 and starting working, the system was slow first half and then gassed up to give actual end times. I am at 185 and all my passes from 15 off to 28 off were slow at 3 ball, but ok at end gates.

Anyone else having similiar issues?, I will call PP tomorrow and set what they think.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Saw this being discussed on the Nichols board.  Please post back what you get from PP, it will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

Ed

[skibug]

Dude, 

I wrote this in a different discussion topic:

 

• CommentAuthorskibug
• CommentTimeFeb 14th 2008 edited

 edit

"I talked to PP.  All is good on the KX.  What I was told that the KX does carry over from the Auto mode to the practice mode; and, even though it is not shown on the screen shot of the digital readout gage, in the manual, it can be adjusted while in practice mode as well.

I also read, in another thread on this site, some comments about the 3 ball splits not coming in as accurate as they should be.  I asked PP about this as well.  They gave me a longer technical answer; which I sort of understand, but the short of it is, that they feel they have worked this out as well.  in particular the problem was more frequent with heavier skiers who pulled harder.  PP said they had worked with Chad Scott as a test case to correct this issue."

 To expand on this comment; PP told me that this happens more often when you have a short setup and don't enter the correct crew weight.  PP said they recomend you enter a crew weight; but, they felt that it was not absolutley necessary.  I don't know your situation relative to these factors.  I will be interested in hearing PP's response.

[roda]

Has anyone taken a 2nd GPS & laptop out that logs the speed and then chart what is happening?

 I have an older Lowrance aviation GPS w/ serial cable and a USB GPS but will need to locate some software to do the data collection.  Can anyone help w/ that?

 -Rod A.

 

 

[Director Darwin]

Skied w/ Chad Scott this weekend.  He has been working w/ PP for the past 2 months and has a beta version in his Malibu that allows for changing of the "settings" for each speed.  The original problem with early versions was slow 1st segments and actual end times.  Corrections were made to the system and now we have fast 1st segments and actual end times.  Chad has perfected the settings for 34 that now give perfect times at every segment but those settings do not translate to 32 or 36.  Different settings for those two speeds.  Expect software updates to be forthcoming for those already in the field.  

As far as skiing, I liked the SG better than PP classic.  The SG was smoother and provided a better "feel".  I felt like the boat responded better to my skier input in SG mode.  I got the same impression from the driver's seat.  We switched back and forth between passes without telling the skier which mode we were in and received feedback at each end.  Without question, the SG was rated a better pull. 

We have an 08 Malibu on our lake w/ SG (same fast 1st segment issues).  A Nautique promo will be delivered to one of our members this weekend.  I'm keeping an open mind with regard to Zero Off even though I've heard nothing positive from skiers I've spoken to.  

[skibug]

Is this insider info; by that I mean if I call PP and ask about the update, would that be out of line?  I have installed my module; but, have not skied yet this season.  if I need to send the module back to PP, I would like to do it before the season starts.

[Director Darwin]

I would contact PP regarding an update.  I believe it will be available within the next two weeks - based on the fact that field testing has been completed and issues resolved.

[slalomdude]

Spoke to Eric and Randy today. They will send me a new module or If Jody is in the area, he can download the new software via a Laptop. Eric will be in Florida tomorrow to do some more testing to finalize the changes. Great guys to talk to , and as usual great customer service.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Got this today from Dave at Skier to Skier (which is where I've ordered my SG from), thought it might be worth passing along.

"We at Skier To Skier want to keep you up to date on your Stargazer order.

This is what is happening. Somewhere between testing and production some issues have popped up with the Stargazer system on some boats. Perfect Pass has found the problem and reprogrammed the software. The new software is currently being tested at several locations and the results look very favorable.

Until we at Skier To Skier are satisfied that these issues have been taken care of and the system meets our standards, we are holding all shipments of Stargazer.

At this time we do not have a firm date for shipping but estimate possible two week delay.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your patience, we are sure that the Stargazer will be well worth waiting for."

 

[RichardDoane]

Received SG yesterday from Dave, look forward to this weekend of running it in and skiing. My boat's an older MC with a carb, so we'll see how it goes.

[eleeski]

My brother Stan is one of the worst slalom drivers around. His times might be perfect but it never feels good and I never ski well with him. Phil Adams in his prime was just the opposite. His times were also perfect but his feel was great and I seemed to get an extra 6 buoys behind him. I want my speed control to emulate Phil, not Stan.

I skied a Stargazer today. Slow third buoy time (but in tolerance) and a perfect end course time. Horrible feel! I couldn't make 6 ball - ever!

Philosophical problem: we want perfect times. But when you get an imperfect skier (like me) things happen to throw off the times. Should each segment be as close to perfect? Or should the end result be right on with segments hot (or soft) to achieve this result? For me the feel and buoy count suck when the end course time is the goal. I vote to let the time fall where it may when the boat tries for the proper speed.

Another defect: there is no skier input into the feel. Some skiers prefer as steady a speed as possible. Others prefer as much speed variation as allowed. PP had it right with the KX PX setting adjustments to accommodate these preferences. Stargazer's lack of this feature makes the pull quite inferior.

PP is going backwards. My 04 MC has an excellent system. The DBW systems are all quirky (and unuseable for tricks in a short lake). The new display is just more complicated. And Stargazer feels like Stan (and still doesn't turn normally at trick speed). The folks at PP are very bright and they do listen to the skiers. But they have a lot more innovating and listening to do before I open my checkbook. Until then, I will have to practice out of tolerance hot times to adapt to the feel in tournament conditions...

Eric

[RichardDoane]

Eric - did you try changing the KX adjustment ? My MC felt alot better to ski behind with it set to normal, or +. If we set it to - it seemed to surge alot more.

[eleeski]

I was told that there were no skier inputs (I prefer KX- PX10 on the old setup). I do not know what settings were used. An earlier set had different settings and was unskiable. The new settings made things fine for Pat who has perfect form. My style is all over the place and the Stargazer didn't like me.

Are there user adjustable parameters? And can the program adjust to accept whatever errors occured early in the course and just adjust to the correct speed - not slavishly make up to get a perfect time?

I was a guest skier so it was not for me to change settings. Paul Donnat (who was doing the setup) did listen to my issues and hopefully will relay them to PP Eric. If you have PP Eric's ear please get him to have user inputs - and shoot for the best speed (not a perfect end course time).

Eric

[slalomdude]

Eric from PP was in Florida this weekend for testing . Word is the fixes didnt work and more work needs to be done on Stargazer.

[Horton]

Eric,

I wonder if you have a EBHaB error or maybe at EBDSaD error

 

[skierfan]

Perfect Pass has been around for over 10 years... anyone saying they spoke to Randy about issues cant be taken seriously... seriously!

[skibug]

Skierfan,

 Who can be a trusted source for information from PP?  I called PP and talked to Mark.  He did indcate that they were still working out some glitches and I would have to send back my module for a software upgrade when the fix was final.  Do you have any more insight or information?

[skierfan]

Testing in Fl went well according to information. Eric from PP spent a lot of time at Jack Travers and Rini's when he was down there.

[skierfan]

But, Brent,,,, you just did...lol

[Horton]

I think that Darwin as already stated this but let me say it again.

There is a known issue with Star Gazer that gives hot first segment and slow second. Perfect Pass knows all about it and the solution has already been worked out. This is a bummer for use who want to use the system early this time of year but I believe that PP will have the fix out before too long. I have a new SG in the boat I train behind and we are using classic mode until we get the fix.

[Horton]

As for ZO: I have read here and on the other forums a lot of carping about how bad ZO is. I have only had 2 sets with ZO last fall and I was extremely impressed. I do not know what has changed with the ZO electronics since then but once I tried all 3 firmness settings I found the one that suited me and I loved it. 

 If I get to a tournament this year and ski behind that boat I will expect a PB.

[RichardDoane]

John - what setting did you like best when skiing behind ZO ?

[Horton]

Richard

I do not remember what setting but is was the "hard" setting. What every that means.

[RichardDoane]

I think A was hardest, C softest. Kind of like the difference in KX of ++ versus -. It was like skiing behind a freight train for me when set to A, I did much better on C.

[Horton]

So we do not all have to call Perfect Pass . . . .  does anyone know what the status is on the "fix"? I assume it will come as a chip.

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Horton]

Richard,

The soft setting felt like the boat was mush. The hard setting (whatever letter) felt solid so I could get my skiing under me and go! I really liked it. Since I skied behind an early version there is not telling how different is from what you skied behind.

[Horton]

Bueller? Bueller?

[slalomdude]

No it will not be a chip. It will either be a download ( via dealer PC) or they will exchange your module. No chips this time around. I have spoken to Eric at PP and extensively with the guys he tested with last week in Fla. It appears they are still a ways away from a fix.  Its ok until you get into shortline or pull the big boys

[slalomdude]

The latest download for ZO has made the A setting the equivalent to the old C. It felt great to me when I skied it recently.

[Horton]

So ZO is all firmer or softer?

Download or Module? Wow that sucks for them. My line is not that short and I am not that big but I demand good times.

[RichardDoane]

I heard today that the 2nd fix is ready. My buddy is emailing Dave @ Skier2Skier to find out about exchanging our 1st versions - will let you know what he says

[slalomdude]

"My line is not that short ", c'mon John ,39 is pretty damn short/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif. 

[Horton]

I have seen the color but I would not say we are friends

[LZywicki1]

Just got  this e-mail fromm Gary at PP about the fix to the software:  I will call you when available.  We will swap Modules, but will require a credit card # which will only be charged if the old Module is not mailed back within 21 days.

[lkb]

the zo update is a download. I skied it today. It's a definite improvement over the original version. On "a" it felt soft in a good way. My ski partner who is lot heavier than me really liked "c".

[RichardDoane]

---

This is straight from the horse's mouth :

 

From: max@skiertoskier.com

To: rascholl@live.com

CC: dave@skiertoskier.com

Subject: RE: Stargazer

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:52:44 -0400

 

Hi Rob,

Yep.   Some boats have been getting slow 3 ball times.  The issue is not on all boats.  From the reports I am getting back from customers, most boats are fine.  But some -- especially softer boats are having the problem.  StarGazer logic only allows so much correction so that a skier is not penalized.   Thus, if a boat gets behind at the gates, it will get a slow three ball.   PP has been working with these boats the last few weeks to come up with some logic that allows them to be much more aggressive coming into the gates.   Reports are positive.   They say they are going to put this logic in system wide for all boats.

Once they get the new logic approved, they are going to do a swap in the mail with folks that already have StarGazers.  I would say to go ahead and install your unit.  Just leave the MasterControl hanging off a zip tie rather than screw it down.   Then when they send you your new MasterControl, you can swap it out easy and mail your old one back.  Dave talked to Carol at PP a couple days ago, and she said they were hoping to start swapping out units next week....... Got my fingers crossed.

We have a list of all our customers emails that have StarGazers and are planning on sending them a note as soon as PP says they are ready.

Hope this helps.

Max

[Horton]

Times do not really make sense with out a skier (Fast in, slow out and  perfect end course) but we finally tried StarGazer Sunday. With a skier the times were weird in the other direction (Slow in, Fast out and Perfect end course). Honestly it felt fine. With and old boat that I think is as strong as any of the new boats I felt like I had to go to KX+ to get wide. I do not do this with classic. It felt pretty good and the end times were all near perfect.

 

Seems like the segment times did not always make sense compared to the full course. Something like lose .01 every segment but get a perfect end course?!? Beats me. I guess the new chip will clear it up.

 

Also had the display just go blank a few times. I love and hate new stuff.

[Deke]

John,

My old (ver 4.01b) PP external display goes blank every once in a while.  We thought it was a grounding issue and gave it a direct ground to the battery with no results, then just gave up.  Over time I realize that it always blanks out when  switching the heater on or off (more often turning it off), which probably means it is a voltage thing.  Been living with it since '99.

 Deke

[Horton]

Just spoke to PerfectPass . . .  Sounds like they are making progress and the fix should be out pretty soon. I think they are a little bummed that the product got out before they worked the bugs out. Fact is version one skis ok.

[Lakewaterjunky]

The wind down from turning off the heater fan motor can cause it to be a temporary generator that may briefly send a reverse voltage glitch that is sensed by the display.

 Some sensitive electronic equipment will sort of burp or hiccup from it.

[Deke]

Not to hijack the thread, but...

Lakewaterjunky, do you know any know fix?

[Weappa]

Add a diode to the power wire to the PP

[Weappa]

Make that add a diode in-line to the power wire of the fan motor

[Lakewaterjunky]

In line with the wire feeding the fan motor is the likely location.

 If you have a run indicator lamp/light on the switch or elsewhere, maybe put it in line with the hot wire somewhere just before the fan. Otherwise, place it in line with the negative wire feeding it, be sure to get one that will handle the current. 10amp draw from your fan=150watt or so and a15amp draw=at least a 200watt. I hope it works out for you.

I'd be glad to share any info that may be helpful ...live2ski@windstream.net

[Director Darwin]

lkb:  A member of my club is picking up his Nautique promo on Friday.  How do we determine which version his boat has? - CC is notorious for not sending boats out w/ the most up-to-date software.

If it is determined that his software is not the most current, how does one access the update?  If by USB / laptop, that works for me.  Thanks. 

[RichardDoane]

Deke - Make sure your PP is wired with it's own circuit. Give the PP it's own "key on" power source, that way heater, shower, radio, etc. won't give a voltage drop to the PP's power supply.

 

JD - When you initially power up PP, it'll say what version it is as it initializes.

[Director Darwin]

Roger:  We have Star Gazer on site in an 08 Malibu - I was inquiring w/ lkb regarding Zero Off.  Determining what version and the procedure to update.

[lkb]

JD,

Checking for the revision is really simple. When you power up the ZO you should see "rev O" in big letters on the first screen that comes up. If it don't see it you still have the old version. If you need the update you will have to have a communications cable(maybe I could mail you mine if your dealer doesn't have one) and you'll have to download the software and get a password to run it. That part requires that you call ZO. I have a phone # for the guy that you should talk to. E-mail me if you need help.

I was lead to believe that my boat had the revision before it left the factory. It took a lot of e-mailing to figure that it didn't and to figure out how to get it updated. My dealer didn't know anything about it. Correct Craft doesn't have the logistics worked out on this at all.

[Director Darwin]

"Correct Craft doesn't have the logistics worked out on this at all".  Surprise, surprise, surprise!!  They are notorious for sending out product w/o current updates.  My 2005 promo boat came with PP version 5.0!  That version was 4 years old at that time.  

Thanks for the updates.  I'll be in touch. 

[skibug]

Has anyone tried to calibrate on a 3 magnet course?  The one course we ski at the private lake has all ball timing magnets; but, the public course that we hit every once in a while has end gates and a 3 ball split only.  I tried running the calibration on the public course and I kept getting really wacky times and very inconsistent; both fast and slow times.  Anyone else experience this?  Any suggestions?  i am going to calibrate at the all ball timing course; but, what happens when I go to the public course that only has the 3 ball split.  If I toggle to the single magnet setting; won't the 3 ball magnet screw up the times?  Anyone know the answer to this one?