How important is ski weight?

[Horton]

How important is ski weight?

[RS]

I remember my old KD7000 was a log.    After skiing a number of skis since then in varying weight I think there is a certain point where there is diminishing marginal returns in going lighter.

 

 

[DW]

It certainly is important, but other qualities are also critical such as damping, moment of inertia, etc.

[eleeski]

A light ski that is poorly designed will not ski well. A great design that is lightened up will ski better. Been there, done that.

Ski weight is one of many factors in ski design. A light ski can do things a heavy ski cannot. Design the ski right - but don't forget to keep it as light as possible. Remember that flex can change with weight and flex is critical in ski design - far more important than weight. Dampening and rebound also can change but the weight effect on performance is far bigger.

Eric 

[chris]

Ski weight should primarily affect only the turns. Ski tip/tail weight, not the middle or primary part of a ski, might help a bit as the ski changes direction, which is called the "moment of inertia". We put ourselves and heavy bindings in the middle of the ski, so losing a few pounds in that area will have almost no change in speed or acceleration, only the swing weight in the turn, which I think, has minimal affect. How high or deep a ski rides is much more significant on how easily it accelerates. Ease of gaining speed is what people feel that a ski is "fast or slow".

[eleeski]

The pull is 90% of the pass. In the pull, the load forces are so large that ski weight is irrelevant. That's why you can ski well on a heavy ski.

Tip and tail weight is critical in spinning trick skis but the overall weight matters for slalom. When doing an acrobatic snap turn the CG of the turning unit is somewhere around the hips of the skier. Where the ski is weighted has a minimal effect on the CG, but the weight of the ski does.

Referring to the other thread on swing, the ski is at the end of the swinging pendulum  and its weight effects are magnified. Lose just a couple of ounces on the ski and you'll be able to enjoy the full 16 ounce Steel Reserve and things will still feel the same.
 Light ski vs diet?

 Eric

[Horton]

 

“flex is critical in ski design - far more important than weigh” After all these years Eric and I agree on something!

 

 

The truth is that I had conversations with 3 of the manufactures reps at the Ski Tests on the subject of weight and none of them expressed a belief that weight was a key factor. I am pretty confident that the technology required to make a ski lighter tightens up tolerances and helps with consistency and quality of the end product.  

 

 

In other ways this technology just makes skis more expensive and fragile. One of the manufactures told me how many skis have to be destroyed because they come out of the mold with twist and I almost cried. The problem with twist is caused by the light core and the lack of additional materail in the ski. The lighter skis are so freak’n expensive because they are hard to make.

 

 

Jamie’s ski is the heaviest ski on the market and he mounts the heaviest bindings to it. If you think that weight slows down how fast as ski changes direction you need to ride the F1.

 

[DaveD]

Light skies are easier to carry down to the dock.  That's very important to us wimpy guys. 

 

It would be interesting to compare skis built in the same mold with the same flex patterns with different weights.  Maybe someone could tape a 1 lb weight on the tip and tail of their ski and see if there is a significant difference.  I'd do it but it's too damn cold in Michigan these days. 

[RS]

Really how much weight difference are we talking about from the lightest ski to the heaviest?  I would think it's about 1 or 2 lbs at most and that is spread over the length of the ski as that weight is probably more in the belly of the ski than the extreme ends.

 

[Horton]

I think the spead is closer to 4 pounds  . . . from Goode to Connelly.

[eleeski]

Dave, I did exactly that. Same mold, comparable flex just a lot more care fitting the core and wetting the graphite. The light ski was less consistent but I had better top performances on it. Rough water was difficult on the light ski. The light ski glided better (carryout), accelerated better and would let me do crazy recoveries. It rode higher in the water, decelerated poorly and bounced around a lot.

However, I could not switch back. The heavy ski felt like lead. It was too sluggish to do anything for me. I was quite surprised.

So many factors affect a ski's performance. Weight is just one minor factor. But all things equal, the lighter ski is better.

Binding weight is also a factor. Hardshells flex in a strange manner. But the very popular Goode Powershells are very light. Perhaps the weight savings are one reason for their popularity.  

Eric 

[DaveD]

Eric, How much was the weight difference between those two skis? 

RS, You are probably right, to get a accurate comparison the weight would need to be more evenly distributed across the lenght of the ski.  That could be easily simulated by taping a bunch of smaller lead weights to the top of the ski.  Preferably allong the centerline. 

From Eric's comments on the differences, the biggest advantages of the extra weight is consistency and handling rough water.  So that begs the question, should we bring tape and lead for those windy days? 

[RS]

LOL.  I do know my F1 handles bad conditions with aplomb.

Just for curiosity I weighed my Monza and the F1.   There was 1lb 1oz difference between the two. 

 

[eleeski]

As tested, I would guess about a 2 pound difference, The old ski was not exceptionally heavy so I only saved about 1 pound in the layup. I switched to a funky rear hardshell and saved close to another pound there (I'm now using double hardshells and saved another pound). Carrying the ski to the dock was much easier - and my best scores went up.

If I were to add lead weight to the ski, I would weight the tip only. Keeping the tip down is always hard for me. I added little lifting wings on the tail of the ski to try to do that with hydrodynamics. But I might try a weight on the tip as an experiment?!

Eric 

[Horton]

How does the light ski fly? I would think that you would be loonking for optimal mass. Does it bounce as well as the heavy ski? :-)

 

[A_B]

 

If I owned a bakery and could convince my customer base that a pie with half of the filling is better for you, charge 40% more, and build a cult following, I guess I would be a marketing genius!  My problem is I would eat the profits!

 

[DW]

Actually you would be a French baker, and everybody would be thin!

[DaveD]

Thin, smell bad, and be hated by the rest of the world. 

[Old MS Accout]

You always see people on the light weight Goodes and then they have those 20lb wileys on them. Weight cannot be that important if guys like Morgan, Hicky ect using wileys on Goodes and running big all the time.

Dont get me wrong, I love Wileys.  

[DW]

Agreed, the bindings are probably 50-70% foot weight, not ski weight.  The lightweight ski will reduce polar moment of inertia (swinging a light barbell vs. a heavy one), so that would be the principle advantage of a lightweight ski.

[eleeski]

The rotational speed of a slalom ski is not that great. So a light ski will not help much in a normal turn. It will not help at all in the pull where there is little ski movement.

Where weight really comes into play is in the transitions. The edge switch from pull to turn involves muscle generated ski movement - the lighter the whole ski the faster this transition can be made. The hookup from turn to pull is never smooth for me - I always end up having to kick the ski to where it belongs. The light ski gets there faster and/or from farther away. A definite advantage for an unskilled skier like me who is always out of position but if you are always right on?...

Most ski manufacturers spent the most quality R&D time on their lightest skis. The many other factors that make a ski great are refined on the lightest ski. Throw overweight bindings on a great ski and you still have a great ski. An ultralight crappy ski is still a crappy ski. Weight is one small factor.

Carbon got really expensive a while back. So now the manufacturers are not using as much carbon, and not touting the benefits of the weight savings as much. And designing heavier skis that work well. But weight IS a factor and should only be ignored for a valid performance reason.

Eric

John, the light ski flys much better. My Cessna has a limited weight carrying capability so the light ski is much better in the plane.

[DaveD]

They also go farther when you throw them.

[Horton]

As for throwing there is definitely an optimal weight. Ask Eric.  

[DaveD]

Is there such a thing as too light?  I ski with a guy that complains his Goode doens't handle the chop very well.  Is that a result of the light weight or the design of the ski?  If it is the weight, I can only imagine how bouncy that Warp is. 

[A_B]

 

 

I am not sure if too light is the right terminology, or not enough material.  If the ski doesn't break, then light weight is probably ok.  I think my old 9100 Goode was really good in rough water, in fact, my buddies use to tease me about skiing poorly in calm water, saying the chop needs to kick up for me.  I have not skied as well in chop on the 9500 or 9700.  Ski design or light weight?  I think the new light weight skis chatter more, no proof of it, just my opinion.

I always marvel at how light weight my blank ski is without my Animals on it.

 

 

 

[DW]

Before one incriminates weight as the culprit for rough water ski handling, one of the key elements for that is damping.  There certainly is a relationship between damping and weight, but there are also techniques used to alter the damping of an object even when it is light.

[jpski]

ski weighs less than 5 lbs in most cases, skier weighs usually 150 plus when put into proportion it really doesnt make a difference. The real difference is some of the newer materials are well designed and light so that is why a light ski may seem better

[skidawg]

heaver the better, that way when u throw it at a big dawg in charleston, it won't break!!!!!

[Boody]

I was talking to Terry Winter about this same subject shortly after he went to the Connelly.  He brought up a good point, the heavier ski will handle the chop and rollers much better.  He said he felt confident when the wind came up that his ski was going to stay in the water. 

He came by and skied at our lake a little while ago and I saw he was on the same Connelly he has had since the beginning.  Let me tell you, this thing is banged, scratched, gouged, all over the place.  Makes you wonder if skis really do break down and if the scratches and gouges matter.  Find a ski and stick with it, something I have a problem with.