“New School / West Coast� Article

[Horton]

“New School / West Coast” Article http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton I assume that most of the regulars here have read my Basic Relaxed Position article. p079.ezboard.com/fslalomt...D=23.topic

To me that article is the fundamental building block #1. I point skiers to that text all the time. I need but do not have any good text on West Coast.

 

I would like you guys to take a swing at a “New School / West Coast” basic explanation. Butterfield I know you are out there and you are one of the best with the technical explanations. Ward, I know you ski with J.B. Eric, just be quite. MS, I am listening. DW, I am cheering for the “Black Budweiser RCR # 3”. Disland, Brent, Viking, rclark, Norwegian, Thanger, Ez-E, Niko, Skiview, tsixam, LakeWaterDrinker, and all the other regulars it is time to contribute.

 

So in an effort to keep this forum from just being my soapbox I need you guys to write me something that we as a group will argue about. Heck if we write something good enough I might try to get it into WaterSkiMag. It could be the one most kickass article or a group edit, I don’t freaking know.

 

And all you lurkers who never post . . . . this applies to you also.

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Edited by: John Taylor Horton at: 3/9/07 11:54 am

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Re: “New School / West Coast” Article tsixam West Coast?

 

One of my best friends has taught me a lot, not in the meaning of a whole lot of different advices. He is a former top level skier, hell he even had the world record for a while. He says that, at our level, there are 4 important things you have to think of and incorporate in your skiing and the rest will more or less come by itself. (If you got the basics nailed.)

 

1. Try to have the same speed as the boat when you turn in for the gates. The more speed you have the easier it is going to be to have the ski on edge when you cross the second wake. If you don’t have enough speed when you turn in, the acceleration will be too great and the boat will pull you of edge to early and you will ski straight to no 1.

 

2. Start to counter with both hands on the handle right at the edge change or even before and keep both hands on the handle as long as possible. Keep the pressure. It will help you to ski wide and early and maintain speed and direction outwards.

 

3. Counter rotate in the preturn and in the turn. If you rotate at the end of the turn it might feels like you have a lot angle but most likely you don´t. And it is easy to get the ski behind you and then you have to compensate by going backwards and you will not be in a good position for acceleration.

 

4. At the end of the turn bend you knees, try to sink in to the ski. ( [Rossi: Tip to rip) Try to ski with as much ski in the water as possible. The ski is designed to be in the water if you don´t have a major part of your ski in the water you might as well down size.

 

Some of it might be West Coast, but to me it is a blend of things that works, at least for me. Except the part “sinking in to the ski” I just can´t do it. When I try I usually end up sitting on the ski. I think that you should incorporate new stuff if it suits your style but everything will not work for everybody. It is hard for me to imagine Lucky skiing West Coast for example.

 

Tsixam

 

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Re: “New School / West Coast” Article Brent Mc On the pull out you want to maintain a tight rope = same speed as boat & on the turn in for the gates ski back to the handle this creates a smooth progressive approach to the gates & help start your rhythm on the proper track . pulling the handle in on the start of your turn creates a stall & you will generally get pulled of edge too early.

 

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RE: HO 410 It seems to come down to being a difference in philosophy: there are several points where one can say, "Old School says this... while New School says this..."

 

Remember the Angle = Speed vs. Speed = Angle discussion? Old School says that you get that ski pointed across the lake and then just hang on: make your angle and you will make your speed. New School says that you build up your speed in order that you can point the ski farther across course. These two approaches are achieved with fairly different stances on the ski.

 

Remember hips to the handle, shoulders back, and lean like you've never leaned before? It is a fairly static position, and does not really allow the skier to build momentum because it is difficult, if not impossible, to incorporate a forward component to the lean. New School looks quite different, the hips open, in a step-behind rotation, that allows the skier to do two very interesting things: lead the ski across the course by creating a forward component to the lean, and allows use of the lower body to set the edge.

 

I try to think of analogies and I cannot ever come to a single example that quite illustrates the difference between Old and New School. An Old School approach reminds me of shooting a watermelon seed by squeezing it between your fingers: it works but it takes a ton of effort (relatively speaking of course). Old School you lean away from the boat and kind of squirt across course. A New School approach reminds me of throwing a football. If you step into the throw (create a forward component of motion) the ball will go much farther than it ever could if you threw flat footed.

 

 

 

Just my thoughts of what I could glean from the text book that is the West Coast Slalom DVD. Hopefully I can put some of this together and actually make some forward progress this year.

 

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West Coast Slalom DVD is good ,if you can stay awake through Brent Mc I really think the West Coast Slalom DVD is the best instruction video out there but it took me 3 seating to get through it . I can use it to replace Frontline for putting me tp sleep.

 

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WC/old school/new school bla bla bla MS I ski the midwest school style. While at the BD finals last year I noticed about 30 styles of skiing that all work pretty well. You have guys like Raley and Miller that look so smooth in every movement they make and it looks like they do not even work at it. Morgan with his arm up in the air prior to hook up. Lucky with his laid back old school style. Favre with a flat out power style. C Scott with power and lean. Tynan is smooth with power. Sam Ingram has a style of no other and runs into 41. So put all this name crap in the bag, grab a handle and ski. get yourself to a good coach that will look at ways to improve on YOUR style.

 

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Re: WC/old school/new school bla bla bla tsixam Amen, brother, Amen!

 

tsixam

 

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I think MS just wrote your entire piece For waterski mag! Brent Mc MS Just nailed it , do what works for you & go to coach's that knows how help you build on your style & rip-it.

 

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efficient ktm300 I have watched from the boat a friend who runs 39. The shot he takes off the ball causes his head to snap back and his eyes roll back in his head. I swear that from the boat you can only see the whites of his eyes when he is behind the boat. He describes it as feeling like things go black for an instance. I'd be willing to bet a pile of $$ that he ain't going to be running 39 when he is 50. Chet is 50. He runs 39 literally every day and on any number of different skis. My point is that there is longevity in good efficient technique. A friend of mine once said that my skiing looked like I was fleeing from a liquor store robbery. I was going around buoys but, disaster lurked. When MS says that it looks like Chet and Miller aren't working, they aren't compared to the stackhouse guys. They are efficient. Time will tell if it is the right choice but, I am aiming for the efficient technique.

 

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style MS I look at all these guys and try to pick and choose what may help me. I go and practice that and decide if it is a possible change for the better. KTMs buddy may end up looking smooth at some point in time. Repitition on what works well will smooth things out. Learning how to carry speed through the ball is the key to any smooth, effortless pass. Stoping and starting will break you.

Your hardest pass will always be your breaker, eventually it smooths out.

 

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Re: efficient http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton Ok you guys put down some cool stuff.

 

(Devils Advocate) But why is the new school stance better? Telling me that it is more efficient does not tell me why. Why are open shoulders better?

 

(5 year old kid voice) Is it better just because everyone says so?

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it is better ms For some skiers, but not all. I think body shape and natural tendincies will detirmine what style you appear to ski. It may be just me, but it appears that all the skiers that look west coast are shorter in stature.

I try to utilize some of that stuff but I think 30 years of my style make it a very tough change. It does not feel natural to me. But it looks pretty good for Winter, Brown ect..

 

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"quite" response eleeski West coast style appears to go for angle through flexibility (and the associated twisting of the body).

Old school gets angle through leverage against the rope (and the associated big pulls).

 

Kris LaPoint is well into his 50s running 39 with old school style. Watching Marcus Brown's face flapping with the Gs in the Warren Miller film indicates that the West coast style can stress the body plenty. Keep strong and flexible (especially for West coast style) to ski as you age.

 

West coast seems to be working so well even for old schol skiers because it can offer a few more tricks to improve things. It may be easier to open up to the boat a bit than ski up to the handle more - same positive effect on the balance of the ski. Of course, Kirk skis West coast style and sometimes I tell him to just straighten up and push more. Pick the pieces out of both styles to match your limitations.

Eric

 

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Re: Why are open shoulders better? tsixam This is a hipshot, but it will hopefully start the discussion The Devils advocate is hoping for.

 

Imagine two skiers, one with closed shoulders and one who skis open. They get the same angle out of the turn and both have optimal pulling position after the turn. Who of them will be skiing wide, early and will finish the turn at or even before ball?..... why?

 

Tsixam

 

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Re: Why are open shoulders better? http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton More to the point: if one is wider and earlier, how is their shoulder openness or lack of the reason. What does my shoulder position have to do with the Price of Tea in China?

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I am going somewhere with this. http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton By the way I am going somewhere with this.

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Lurker bgm3864 I'm not a Lurker, I simply have nothing to add.

 

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Re: Lurker http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton That's cool.

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RE: Why open shoulders? HO 410 On Seth's site, www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3, he's got a few video tips of the month. One is addressing stance on the ski. Guess what? he's teaching a little hip rotation. It's subtle, in comparison to what WCS teaches, but enough to create that shift forward that is helpful, without compromising a strong skiing position. (trying to get that weight forward without the little twist of the hips usually ends in a face full of water, or maybe that's just me)

 

What does moving the (insert buzzword) center of mass forward do? It lets your body generate speed across the course. Ideally, the boat is only there to move you down the lake and you use your body weight to move, literally fall, across the course. Hip up to the handle and it seems like it would be the boat that does both the work of pulling you down and across across.

 

(As far as effort goes, Terry and Marcus both exert about 500lbs. peak and 400lbs. average at the peak of the pull on their 39 1/2 passes. No idea how that compares to other skiers)

 

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WTH do I know about West Coast? Bruce Butterfield Ok, I have been struggling with this since I don't ski “West Coast” and don't claim to fully understand what Marcus and company are advocating, but will throw a few comments into the mix. What I think WC is about is efficiency of movement. This does not mean its effortless, just that you get more speed/angle from the physical exertion of the body. Shortline slalom takes a lot of strength no matter what style you use.

 

Open shoulders: As I practice and think about this more, keeping the shoulders open at the right phase is very important. I keep coming back to the snow skier who always keeps his upper body facing straight down the hill while the hips and legs turn back and forth. The translation to the waterskier is that the upperbody should always be facing downcourse, in the direction the boat is traveling. There is a multitude of things going on that are really difficult to put into words and is much easier shown. In a nutshell:

 

- Keeping the shoulders open allows the skier to keep the shoulders level (there is another list of reasons this is important)

- Particularly on the offside lean, keeping open to the boat is stronger. Think about turning the shoulders away, then hitting the wake, how easy it is to break forward and get out of position.

- Counter-rotating in the preturn helps keep the handle in closer. Bio-mechanically, this a much stronger position than trying to keep the handle in when directly facing the boat.

- Go back to the turning on a barstool analogy – turn the upper body one way, and the lower body turns the other. So the counter rotation is always opposite to the direction the lower body is turning.

 

Maintaining speed: This gets back to the simple physics of F=ma. The more acceleration or deceleration you need, the more force you have to apply. The average speed at a given line length is constant, which gets higher as the line gets shorter. The traditional explanation is that the acceleration and deceleration get more extreme as the line gets shorter. If you can keep the minimum speed higher (never slow down too much), you can get through the course with less acceleration, and less force necessary. This also ties into the explanation that speed allows you to carry angle, not the reverse as most of us learned. The more speed you can maintain, the more angle you can keep, and the more rounder you can make the turns (as opposed to a zig-zag start-stop path which applies lots of force on the skier). Bottom line is that you want to keep your speed as high as you can while still turning the ski.

 

For tsixam's hipshot, both will be the same if they both have 'optimal' pulling position and angle. However, both of them will not maintain 'optimal' position the same amount of time. The first difference that comes to mind is the the skier who closes off at the completion of the turn will nearly stop while the skier who keeps his shoulders facing downcourse will maintain speed out of the turn. Next, in the preturn phase, the skier closes off will be rotating his upper body toward the boat and will have very hard time keeping the handle in close.

 

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Re: WTH do I know about West Coast? tsixam Bruce is right. The more open skier will be wider and earlier. As Bruce pointed out, an open stance is stronger and the risk of breaking forward is not as big as in the closed shoulder case. Simply put, it is easier to keep the hard earned angle and speed.

 

Another thing we might consider is the counter rotation at the edge change/turn. If you ski with your shoulders closed one can say that you have all ready done your counter rotation at the end of the previous turn and have nothing left for the next preturn/turn. You have burnt all your powder! And will most likely ski more or less straight to the next ball. The skier with open shoulders has lots room left for counter rotation and it will be much easier for him to keep the speed and angle. His carry out will be better than the closed skier who will ski more straight to the ball.

 

Tsixam

 

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[Horton]

Re: WTH do I know about West Coast? http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton Ok guys seems like we have some pretty solid thinking going on. Time for me to shake it up.

 

(From the ball to the wake) What I get from the new school guys is they are working on Ski Pitch and Roll. Most the openness, drive forward or “step back” ideas are about moving the skier’s center of gravity forward to get the ski flat in the lake. The more of ski that is in the water the more efficient you are in tracking across the lake.

 

So “Horton’s Law of Ski Pitch” might read something like: As the tip of the ski comes up, the rate of slide in the direction of the pylon increases. As the tip comes down (more ski in the water) the ski slides toward the pylon less and travels on a path closer to the apparent angle of the ski. The closer the skis path of travel is to the apparent ski angle (less slide) the more efficient it is. A path with less slide is a path that gets the skier across the course faster, easier and further up course.

 

(I think Yaw is an acceptable term for the difference between the apparent ski angle and the actual direction of travel - can I get a pilots opinion on this?)

 

What surprised me about the West Coast video was that they were talking about increasing ski Roll. Even though it has always seemed counter intuitive: I always kind of thought that I wanted to lean on the rope as little as I could. I thought that if I had body lean beyond what is natural at a given pass it was not really efficient. (If you watch me ski you will see that I bear down on the rope a lot). It always seemed to me if I was really locked down I could not get more angle on way to the wake but if I was patient I could build angle all the way to the wake.

 

“Horton’s Law of Ski Roll”? Get as much Roll as possible?

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pilot style eleeski A pilot would roll the ski on edge (with ailerons), yaw the ski to the desired angle (with rudder) and hold the ski level (with the elevator). The deviation from ski angle to ski path you describe is sideslip.

Lacking aircraft controls we must roll the ski on edge (with balance and lean and perhaps some help from the handle pulling us over), yaw the ski around (either by patiently waiting for the turn rate designed into the ski or by extraordinary methods like burying the tip and skidding the tail around) and hold the ski level (with appropriate lean fore and aft). The power comes from the rope and will destabilize the rolled edge so lean is needed to maintain the rolled edge.

 

Maximize the rolled edge, keep as much of the ski in the water to minimize the sideslip (more roll will help this too) and lean as necessary to balance the loads.

 

The aircraft analogy is better than the snow skier analogy. Snow skiers are doing quick turns in rapid succession. Waterskiers (and aircraft) spend most of their time between turns. Whatever style makes the turns faster and the travel angle greater is best - and it will vary depending on strength, size and flexibility of the individual.

 

Irreverent question: how does starting a turn open to the boat help carryout when your body is already twisted the wrong way? And wouldn't starting a counterrotation in this phase hurt even more? I'm getting confused...

Eric

 

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Re: still shoulders... tsixam John, I was not ready with the shoulder issue. I just had to get some job done..

 

I have been thinking. I don´t know if it is good or bad. There is one thing, well there is a lot of things, I don´t understand. But one thing that puzzles me for the moment is the barstool analogy.

 

If I got it right the theory goes like this. “If you turn your shoulders one way you hips and ski will go the other way”. So if you ski with your shoulders open you will gain angle or at least it should be easier to keep the angle you been working hard to get. So far so good. But if you then counter in the preturn you hips would still go the opposite way and you would loose some of the angle you have achieved? It just don´t make sense to me.

 

Bruce or anybody?

 

Tsixam

 

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Re: pilot style http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton

Quote:

---

Irreverent question: how does starting a turn open to the boat help carryout when your body is already twisted the wrong way? And wouldn't starting a counterrotation in this phase hurt even more? I'm getting confused...

---

 

Eric you are way ahead of the group. Hold onto that question and we will get to it.

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Re: pilot style Brent Mc The snow skier analogy is perfect, not all alpine skiing is about quick successive turns Giant slalom turns are long & sweeping & can be quite similar to well executed shortline course turn.

 

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Bumps rule eleeski I have never seen anyone run deep shortline with long sweeping turns. Whatever twisting contortions Marcus uses with West coast style makes his ski turn faster and tighter. Scott Larsen's classic style has the ski turning fast as well. More time for the pull and preturn.

 

When I'm traversing the hill in snow for 1-2 seconds I try to square my shoulders to the direction of travel. Only when I'm preparing to turn do I face my shoulders down the fall line. Of course, when I'm running technical gates I do counterrotate to dive down the hill without smacking the pole too hard - this looks a bit like West coast and it does help my turns (when I have enough skill to do it). But REAL snow skiing down the zipper line of moguls or floating through powder feels nothing like slalom skiing.

 

And it always feels like I'm flying when I slalom. (Maybe that's why I'm not very good...)

Eric

 

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reconsidering eleeski While I still reject the snow skier analogy, maybe the counterrotation in the turn is a way of putting more pressure on the edge of the ski. It certainly feels like more edge pressure on snow. Maybe staying open to the boat in the pull just avoids wasted movement and allows more counterrotation (and it's associated edge authority) in the turn.

 

When should I start the counterrotation?

Eric

 

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Snow VS water MS Eric,

I see that the Yeti wants to ride the plank. Maybe you can sponser him on the new LEESKI.

There is a nice shot of Jamie in WSM this month. Side by side water and snow shot. What is tough to deal with is when snow skiing and you counter, one foot is forward and one behind. Then you switch again, and your back foot is now in front and your front foot is now back. My Monza has right foot in front and it stays there. So how do you drop that foot behind when you counter from that side?

 

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Re: Ski roll depends on speed? tsixam I believe that he amount of ski roll is depending of the amount of speed. It is just like riding a bike. If you don’t have enough speed when you are turning, you are falling. I think we all have experienced that if you turn too hard(to much ski roll) you will at first get lots of angle but as you approach the wake the boat is pulling you of edge and you will be narrow and late for the next ball. But the next turn will very often be good and you can really crank it. I think that is because of the high speed you have from being late. So much ski roll is good but there got to be enough speed to support it.

 

Tsixam

 

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elee skidawg nice side bar article in wsm this month eric! when can i get a sponsorship?

 

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Lots of thoughts: http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton Lots of thoughts:

 

TSixam,

I really like the first three of your comments back on the top of this thread. I am working on the first on with a Terry Winter approach. I think it has to be easier then the Marcus method but I am yet to get really forward as I rotate in to the gates.

 

Your second point is also golden. I have been working on that an more since last spring. I am driving the handle to the outside and out in front of me as opposed to giving it to the boat. I think it is a huge deal.

 

Tip # 4? Man I tried to learn that in the 80s and it screwed me up bad. I know believe and coach a more straight legged approach to slalom. I know this blows Bruce’s mind but I can defend it. More on this later.

 

HO 410,

 

“Angle = Speed vs. Speed = Angle discussion” is a key to what is in my head lately. Again Pitch and Roll. What I think WestCoast does better is get the skiers center of gravity forward and get pitch closer to 0 degrees. At a given ski angle the more pitch, the more sideslip and the more slide slip the less speed. With your pelvis swung in the direction of travel your weight is further forward. That is all it is.

 

I do not buy into the idea that leaning into the lean (you know what I mean) does anything but change pitch. Fall across the line? It is about how the ski travels on the water and your ability to put pressure on it.

 

Bruce,

 

Do you buy my pitch / roll theory?

 

Quote:

Maintaining speed: This gets back to the simple physics of F=ma. The more acceleration or deceleration you need, the more force you have to apply.

 

Yea this is a big deal. More water speed = less sideslip? I guess.

 

 

 

Eric,

By counter rotating correctly at the edge change you are doing a lot of things. If your inside shoulder goes forward (NOT outside shoulder back) it helps keep your shoulders level and that keeps you from falling into the turn. This movement also brings your center forward (reduces pitch) which lets your ski fallow a natural arc out to the ball.

 

To clear this up: (we think that) though your pull you want to be at least somewhat open to the boat and at the edge change you want to take your inside shoulder forward. So what you end up with is your chest facing right from the edge change going to one ball until it is time to edge change for two ball. Countering out at each edge change.

 

I bet that makes your head hurt.

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Re: Lots of thoughts: DW Great discussion. A couple of interesting items concerning the threads. Slip and yaw: a tire will only allow a vehicle to corner when a slip angle is developed, it would only go straight with no slip, I think there is certainly a lot here related to skiing (both snow and water), so, a level of slip then develops yaw. The aircraft analogy is interesting, but airplanes operate in 3D, not 2D and they also slip. I think the roll is related to slip, certainly if you look at the extremes, a ski flat on the water (the no roll case) will not change directions, but a ski perpendicular to the direction of travel will also not slip a great deal, but there is a significant difference in conditiions above and below the water line which would induce a slip level. There is a great deal of slip in the water ski as it follows it's path, any overhead shots clearly show that. Roll angle and wetted surface area appear to be the key elements in slip angle.

 

I played with the "new school" technique while out on the snow boards and the effect of hip movement / CG movement (inward and down) was very significant on the performance of the shaped snow ski, not nearly as pronounced on a set of old straight skis. Not sure the correlation with older and newer water skis, but food for thought.

 

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3/26/07 7:46 am

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wide and early ktm300 How wide and early can one be at 41 or 39 even? What do I really gain by forcing myself to be wide and early. Early compared to what? The buoy or the boat. Early relative to the ball could very well mean that you are not positioned on the boat and that it is leaving you. Am I better off running 32 early to the ball or simply on time and in sync, position wise, with the boat? Is not the latter scenario what I must do to run 38 or better? Why not practice that at the longer lines too?

 

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3/26/07 9:58 am

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Re: wide and early http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton KTM,

 

Go check out the Andy Mapple DVD. His deal is, do what you can to get out wide and then you do not have to stress about a perfect turn. Andy calls it “Making Space”. It goes in line with the discussions over the years about how much time you spend in a preturn vs time getting across. The faster you can get across the lake the better and the easier your turn can be. I believe that at 39 &41 Andy is actually ahead of the pylon at some point before the ball.

 

Not sure if this is what you are thinking but . . . I am trying to rip on every pass no matter the rope length this spring. Clearly things are not the same at 28 as they are at 35 and beyond but I do not see the point is practicing skiing easy.

 

I am working in a new idea I am calling “Get Zero” or “Recovery Skiing” that is really almost the same as West Coast Skiing but terms that I can think and talk about. Suyderhoud’s terminology and explanations make my head hurt but I think that what he is “trying” to say is freaking brilliant. My version is all about getting from the ball to the edge change like a rocketship. I talked to Dawg about it and he swears it cleaned up his skiing a bunch.

 

I will write something up on the subject in the next week or two.

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wide and early/LISA 2 MS I dont think they are the same or should be used in same sentance. If you are early, you must now wait. Waiting can kill speed, you and the pass. at 35/38/39 the boat must beable to do its thing. It has to be out front of you. Trying to do it too fast will cause you to break or get a ton of slack . I take the term "Wide" to be positioned south of the ball, not wide of the ball line. That is Andys Space he is talking about. A Lisa readout would be nice to see when this being spoke of. The correct amount of speed is the key. That is differant at every line length. That is why repitition is key for practice in this great sport. Keep your minimum speeds to the maximums, and your maximum speeds to the minimums and it will alright. Dont go to fast and dont go to slow. Sound easy.

 

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3/26/07 10:48 am

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Get Zero http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton Speaking only of your weight distribution forward and back wards, if your hips are exactly centered over your bindings (exactly even weight on both feet) I would describe you as being in the Zero Position. As your center or gravity moves back you are moving negative until your ass hits the back of your ski at -90. One the other hand when you center punch the ball and fall on your face you are at +90.

 

I think most of us ski somewhere between -10 and -25 from the ball to the wake. The only guys that are close to +5 are Terry, Marcus and a few of the other elite WestCoast guys.

 

We all know that we want to be close to Zero from the ball to the wake but it is one of those things that I think a lot of skiers do not really work on. If they do work on it they generally seem to work on it in terms of West Coast style. I have come to the conclusion that no matter what your style is and no matter what you turns look like, if your are not working on being closer to Zero from the ball to the wake then you are missing buoys.

 

The thing that convinced me of this is watching skiers who really look like crap at the ball but then post the monster score. Those guys have puzzled me for years. Some folks think that these guys are just really strong. Watch a total Ball of Spray like SkiDawg, he looks like he is going to fall around every ball and or pull the pylon out of the boat but he recovers and on the way to the wake he always seems to get close to Zero.

 

If you watch Andy Mapple (the great one) the pitch of his ski is always down at the wakes. His body is close to Zero degrees. With a totally different style Parish also has a huge amount of ski in the lake at the wakes (close to Zero). Both of these guys are at freaking Warp 12 when then crest the second wake.

 

All of the guys who really do WestCoast are very close to or past Zero. My only issue with WestCoast is that I think you need to be able to get close to Zero in a comfortable position before you try to twist your body past Zero. Really a West Coast lean is all about twisting to get past Zero. There is also a Roll advantage with the WestCoast position but I have not yet wrapped my head around it.

 

Bottom Line: I think that a pretty turn is nice but no matter what happens at the ball you must be ready to recover as far back to Zero as possible.

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Edited by: John Taylor Horton at: 3/26/07 3:35 pm

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Re: wide and early/LISA 2 http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton MS,

 

I want to get out there with as much speed as I can. Speed going out not with the boat. I do not think you can carry too much speed on the way out. If you screw up your edge change (I can show you how to do this if you like) you will have too much speed going down the lake and that is really bad. The day I pass the boat with a tight line is the day I have too much speed.

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Re: wide and early/LISA 2 Brent Mc The difference on speed going to the ball is in the explanation.

 

You want to be carrying lots od speed coming out of the wakes toward the turn ball , it should = a tight line

 

You don't want to continue accellerating to the ball, that = a lot of slack rope on the turn!

 

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3/26/07 5:47 pm

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Re: wide and early/LISA 2 tsixam I think this makes counter rotation and two hands on the handle even more important. When you have a lot of speed and are very early, if you then let go and start you reach you will be sucked towards the boat immediately. But if you hold on, counter and keep the pressure, you will have a better carry out and you will not lose your speed and width so fast.

 

I have noticed in my own skiing that when I am a little bit late, or not really wide I am pretty good at keeping the pressure. But when I have a good turn and a pull close to zero pitch and think I am going to be wide and early, I tend to let go too early and lose the pressure and in return I lose the space I had created. This is of course stupid. I don’t know why I am doing it but I guess it is something subconscious. I probably believe that I am in great shape and trying to be careful not to lose the space or something like that. Have any you the same experience?

 

Tsixam

 

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3/26/07 11:13 pm

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Re: wide and early/LISA 2 tsixam Or cure?

 

Tsixam

 

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[Horton]

 “Inner Course; the Road to 5 ball” http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton I am with you on the “I got it Syndrome” or 4 ball-it is (like tendon-itis). All I can tell you is that when the rope gets short and I am nervous I really think about driving the handle forward from the edge change to the ball. This does a lot of good things as well as keeping the line tight. (learned this from the original Ball of Spray -SkiDawg).

 

If you think it is all in your head, I highly recommend the book “The Inner Game of Tennis” but Tim Galloway. (not his other books like “Inner Tennis, playing the game”, “Inner Course; the Road to 5 ball” or what ever he has written). The Inner Game of Tennis is all about the mental games we play without selves under pressure and when learning new skills.

 

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Re: “Inner Course; the Road to 5 ball” tsixam John,

 

Thanks for your advice. I have always tried to counter with my elbows as close to my body as possible. Driving the handle forward is a new approach for me. But I will give it a good try, and let you know how it works for me.

 

Tsixam

 

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3/27/07 10:06 am

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speed MS I think I agree with building speed after the wake, but getting to the next ball too early will cause you to want to turn in an go. You need lots of patience on an early line. At 38, if I bring too much at 1 ball (or any ball) I end up turning to early and falling into the turn or getting bigtime slack. It sounds funny but this is my theory. Keep your minimum speeds at their maximums, and your maximum speeds to their minimums. This means that there is a perfect fast speed and a perfect slow speed involved in each wake crossing/ballrounding effort. Keep those 2 constant with each line length and you have it made. Too fast or too slow and you will be inconsistant. Repitition at all line lengths makes perfect.

 

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3/27/07 10:09 am

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Not so random thoughts and comments Bruce Butterfield I'll try to catch up with a long list of comments in one post......

 

Tsixam – the barstool analogy is a tricky one and applies more to the upper/lower body separation concept than than counter rotating the preturn. The important thing that countering in the preturn does is put you in a better bio-mechanical position to keep the handle close.

 

John – no your straight leg approach doesn't blow my mind. It works well for some and certainly can provide good leverage. The real downfall of straight legs is in rough water.

 

You're only confusing everyone and making your own head hurt when you start talking about pitch, roll, sideslipe, yaw, etc. Those terms are very clear when you're talking about aircraft, but the meanings don't translate well into waterskiing. Try attitude of ski (nose up or lots of ski in the water) and body lean angle – I think that's closer to what you mean.

 

You missed the reason for maintaining speed, it has nothing to do with sideslip. If you could maintain a constant speed of say, 50mph through the course, you would need some Daytona type high bank turns, but the pull you would have to exert on the boat would be MUCH less than we do now. You would also be exerting some serious g's in the turns. When reality sets in, you end up blowing out the ski when trying to turn with too much speed, hence the need to slow down and accelerate out again. The balancing act is to turn as tight as you can with as much speed as you can without stalling the ski or blowing it out. No mean feat!

 

MS – the “correct amount of speed” is as much as you can have and still make a controlled turn. If you blow out the ski, wheelie, or break forward, then you had more speed than you could handle. The best skiers are the ones that can handle the most speed. Running the next shorter line means being able to both generate and turn with more speed.

 

KTM – you want to ski as wide and early as possible – the key is that wide and early is relative to the boat, not the course. Consider if you're 20 feet before the buoy and out to the buoy line. You're early if you're even with the pylon and the boat is 20 feet before the boat guides. You're late if the boat is at the boat guides and you're behind the swim platform. Andy's video has many gold nuggets, not the least of which is to ski every pass with the same intensity as your hardest pass.

 

John – your zero position is a great fundamental point that many skiers neglect.

 

Tsixam – your wide and early/LISA 2 comment hits the nail on head! Being early and coming off the handle too soon is a sure way to get late. The cure is to hold the handle in close as long as possible.

 

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3/27/07 8:10 pm

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Re: Not so random thoughts and comments auskier i have been coached recently by a pro out of the rini school of thought and was told to come off the handle sooner than what i was.

something that i dont think has been brought up in regard to being open to the boat through the wakes is line tension off the second wake. If you are taking the pull through your back arm you have to transfer to your inside arm more before you can release. Staying open allows you to release earlier off the second wake and therefore letting your ski cast out.counter rotating sooner instead of having more load on your outside arm increases the chance of being pulled to the inside and loosing width, ie. not casting out.

countering early also allows you to bring your centre of mass and inside hip towards the boat, putting more ski in the water ready to turn.

 

did that make any sense at all?

 

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3/28/07 7:48 am

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Welcome to Tweakers http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton Augh Crap! I believe you but am going to have to think about this.

 

By the way, Welcome to Tweakers.

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Bruce MS I agree on what you say. That is basicly what my Keep you mins to amax and maxes to the mins comment.

Only use what you need to run a pass. No more or no less.

 

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Re: Bruce auskier thanks john. im a long time observer in here but yes, first time poster

 

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3/29/07 2:34 am

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example of Get Zero http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton here is an example of Get Zero

 

Parish 39 off

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zero? auskier do you mean that you cant see the gate balls john?

if so go frame by frame and they are actually there, very faded red or yellow balls. that video was up on shnitz for a while, also a clip of a full 41 too.

 

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Re: zero? http://www.ezboard.com/image/cscicon3.gif John Taylor Horton No No . . I am working in a new idea I am calling “Get Zero” or “Recovery Skiing” that is really almost the same as West Coast Skiing but terms that I can think and talk about. Suyderhoud’s terminology and explanations make my head hurt but I think that what he is “trying” to say is freaking brilliant. My version is all about getting from the ball to the edge change like a rocketship. I talked to Dawg about it and he swears it cleaned up his skiing a bunch.

 

What I call Zero is in the dead center of your ski. Zero degrees from center. The hardcore WestCoast guys at at like +5 or +10 and most of us are at -10 or worse.

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